Today Gayle and Dan mentioned a couple of things:

• 4 horsemen handout: ⁠https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vS6gx83cNN6ONNjbmhrDaur0i0fPKkqW/view?usp=sharing⁠

• Dr. Gayle MacBride’s TikTok about "not buts": ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@drgmacbride/video/7308425976701046059⁠

•  and Michael mentions "FANBOYS": ⁠https://www.shsu.edu/centers/academic-success-center/writing/handouts/loc/punctuation/Commas.pdf

• Dr. Gayle MacBride mentions the "Region-Beta Paradox", here's perhaps the first article that discusses it: ⁠https://web.archive.org/web/20230330085203/https://www.scn.ucla.edu/pdf/PeculiarLongevity.pdf

•  And, if you had an experience with the "Region-Beta Paradox", or have another thought to share or question for us, reach out via our mailbag: https://www.veritasviews.com/contact

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi, I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride. And today I am here with Daniel Kessler, psychologist, extraordinaire.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, yeah, that's me. Hi, welcome all to this. Podcast. Looking forward to picking apart another Internet conundrum brought to us by our host, Michael MacBride, and happy to be joined by my friend and business partner, Gayle MacBride, who just introduced me

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so, Michael, what do you have of interest? Oh, we have a special bonus conversation today where I'm going to learn something that I don't know what I'm going to learn. So it's going to be a surprise to me, looking forward to that as well. Michael, what do you have for us?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Surprises this morning.

Host: Michael: Little pre bonus conversation. Then I just wanted to share with listeners. If you have. If you don't know already, Veritas Views, the podcast used to be a sub page on our big page, veritaspp.com. You can still find podcast related information there. But it now has its own web, page, veritasviews.com. So if you want the transcripts, if you want all that stuff.

Host: Michael: if you're just interested in the podcast you can find it there you can reach the mailbag where you can connect with us and either one of the places. So wherever you go, you can reach out to us. We love those kind of messages. And

Host: Michael: actually, I know, because I talked with Gayle this morning the bonus conversation will have a call for feedback. So please the mailbag, either veritasviews.com or veritaspp.com and of course, there'll be links in the podcast notes and that kind of stuff. So

Host: Michael: but all right that out of the way. Welcome, both of you, for any of those Newbies who aren't sure what they fell into. This is a situation where I have gone out, and I've looked on the Internet, and somebody has shared a scenario. And they ask essentially, who is the asshole here? And that's what we'll hopefully find out where there's been any kind of identifiable information. I've tried to change those to be a little more discreet, and.

Host: Michael: as we've already mentioned, stick around for that bonus conversation. It always happens after the credits. Neither Dan nor Gayle have seen this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yes.

Host: Michael: Yes, bonus beyond, above and beyond, like we've given you a little something extra.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: What you paid for.

Host: Michael: Right, definitely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, all right.

Host: Michael: But anyway, they don't know what I'm going to throw their way. So this is the topic we got for today, which is.

Host: Michael: am I the asshole for telling my girlfriend? I wouldn't make her coffee anymore unless she stops micromanaging me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Let's do it, Dan. Let's rumble.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, just from the title, and we're going to get more obviously. But just from the title, like like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: the the micromanage.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: it's a pretty strong, pretty strong word. If you don't do this I won't do that anymore. Those things 2 things aren't tied to each other

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like I I mean. Maybe they are in the in the story, but I'm just not a fan of that sort of like. If you don't do this, I won't do that kind of kind of comment, although.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: thank you, that's what I was saying.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I hear the micromanage just kind of does get the hairs up on the back of your neck. It's got a it's got a really negative connotation. We probably should hear more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We should hear more. But I'm but I think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: What's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I do want to underscore that before we have a chance, because this might not be valid.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: After Michael's story, the idea of a quid pro quo in a relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Boom.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is really problematic.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like I do something nice for my partner. My partner does something nice for me. It's not like, oh, she did this. So now I'm going to do that. And and like, if you don't do this, I won't do that. That's sort of a quid pro quo arrangement. Yeah, we have these arrangements where we have, but it shouldn't be so like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: If you don't take out the trash I won't mow the lawn.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right? Right? It's it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But we're

Dr. Daniel Kessler: if you do this, I'll do that. That just I feel uncomfortable with those quid pro quos in a relationship. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: If you do, the dishes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right. Let's hear the story, though.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Host: Michael: Okay.

Host: Michael: so this is one where we have boyfriend girlfriend. They are mid twenties. And so like one's 26 and one's 24. That makes any difference. But anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Development. It does but please.

Host: Michael: Yeah. So it says, my girlfriend and I have been together for 2 years and living together for 6 months. I usually make coffee in the morning, and at 1st she loved it, but lately she's gotten incredibly particular, insisting I measure the grounds to the exact gram.

Host: Michael: pre-warm the mug and add milk at a precise temperature. I tried to accommodate her preferences, but no matter what she'd quiz me about every detail, if anything was slightly off, she'd sigh and complain that it wasn't the right way. The breaking point came when she dumped an entire cup. I made down the sink and then remade it herself, while ranting, that I never do it properly frustrated.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Host: Michael: I told her that if she was going to be this picky she should make her own coffee. She got upset, saying I was overreacting, and that she should respect that I should respect how she likes it. I argued that I was respecting her preference. I just wasn't willing to constantly be criticized over something as small as coffee. She called me lazy and unaccommodating, and now I feel guilty. I do want her to enjoy her morning coffee, but I'm tired of feeling like a barista under strict supervision. Am I the asshole for refusing to make it until she stops micromanaging it? Or

Host: Michael: should I just suck it up and follow her elaborate instructions.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm gonna jump in immediately. Here I often let my

Dr. Daniel Kessler: business partner here. You have the 1st word on this particular moment of it. But I'm going to jump in here because I need to immediately point out when I'm wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have. I have noted immediately. I have. I have noted immediately that in this particular one I am dead ass wrong like. Are you fucking, kidding me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: My immediate response here. So now now I'll step back. Now that I've admitted my incorrectness.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'll step back and let you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Let's hear a little more about how Dan was wrong. I love this I don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And tell me, what were you wrong about?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, you know, initially, I heard a quid pro quo here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. And that troubles me. And now I hear a story of someone who's like, I want to make my partner happy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But instead of being like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: there's a moment you can really be appreciative. Hey? Thank you so much for making my coffee. I would love it if it were a little bit stronger, or I would love it if it a little bit weaker, you know. That's fine, you know. Thank you so much for making my coffee like like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I like milk in it, whatever. But there's a level of persnickediness that this that that OP's partners appear again. We're only hearing OP. Side of this appears to have crossed that line from. I appreciate this, and I would also like it to be warmer, colder.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: darker light, or whatever to like you. You have to use 43 grit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I weigh my coffee out like when I make a French press? I do. I like this many grams of coffee and this temperature water like I do all that stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I really care about my coffee, but not if someone else is making it for me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: If someone else makes it for you, it's kind of okay, even if they're making it for you every day, and they do not properly weigh the coffee and heat it to the proper temperature that you're consistently getting coffee. That is not your preferred coffee.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well again, there's a difference between like like, I like my coffee really dark. And if if if they say they're making really like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: T, you know. Like, if it was tea looking coffee, I might say, Hey.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really like a dark blend, or I really like, you know, how do you feel about making this? I might, but it's but it's a thank you so much for doing this, and I like it. I wouldn't be like, you know when I make it. I use 60 grams, and this is clearly a 55 gram pour like like that would be. There's a difference between. I prefer something some way, and being super persnickety, the way he described his partner being.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I totally agree. I just want to see under caffeinated Dan navigate that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, I've had. I've had this, and and right now we don't my scale. I don't have access to my scale. So I had to eyeball it, and I admit I was a bit disappointed

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because I didn't in yourself, though

Dr. Daniel Kessler: in myself. Yes, yes, now had my had my wife made this coffee I would have been like. Thank you so much for the coffee.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And she probably would have said, Yeah, but I didn't have the scale, and it's kind of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: although she eyeballs it and does a great job better than me. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So I think you hit on something that's really important here, which is, this is OP. Self report. And we know as psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: as people who have done forensic work right as therapists like. We just know that self-report is not always all that, because we have a temptation to put our best foot forward with whoever you know we're speaking with, or in this case, you know, writing to this, this grander global Internet audience. So I'm not sure that I feel really comfortable with how OP described their response versus the partner's response. That said

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that, said the information as we have it, and as likely more or less as it went down. You know, even if this is like, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: 75% of what the partner said, I'm still really concerned. We have the 4 horsemen out of the gate she is criticizing and hold. I know I'm going there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, go go there, please.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Michael, would you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: To the show.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Link in the show notes to the 4 horsemen handout that we have on our website. Sorry, Gayle, for interrupting you.

Host: Michael: And that's the got ones right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I want to direct people. Yeah, the Gottman for horsemen. Really terrific information that we've put together. And if you go to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What Dr. MacBride is saying here will make so much sense. It will make sense, anyway, please, I apologize.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: A lovely handout of the of the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse, and then their antidotes, and and just really quickly for listeners, the 4 horsemen. The Apocalypse are 4 major communication errors or problems that show up in interpersonal relationships that are kind of the death knell of a healthy relationship. When you engage in these and continue to engage in them. Because let's be honest, we all do them sometimes right, but you want to find the antidote or engage in repair. When you've realized that you've done this

Dr. Gayle MacBride: if you don't, it tends to eat away at the, at the relationship to the, to the extent that it may not be sustainable. You may not continue, be able to continue in the relationship because one of these sort of brings out the other in your partner, and they just kind of hold on each other, and it becomes just a disastrous mess.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And this is kind of what I wanted to highlight. Right? So criticism and contempt are known as the most necrotic or problematic of the 2, especially contemptuousness. Right? She's got this contemptuousness about. Like, I know this really good coffee. And and so she it's dripping all over, and and she's calling him names. You're just lazy, and I mean it gets really icky right? And how does he respond?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Defensiveness?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? No, I'm not. No, I didn't. You're just not grateful. I mean, this couple is just tripping over all of these, you know, and I could see this argument then going fine, and then one storms off into the other room. That stonewalling. Now we don't have any conversation. We're shutting down, Dan. What you were modeling in the conversation between 2 people is, hey, honey, I really appreciate you making coffee, and you know I do like just a little bit more cream in mine. I wonder if next time you'd be willing to to put cream in? We can talk about a complaint

Dr. Gayle MacBride: versus, you know, a criticism, and we can say, You know, hey, I see the good in you instead of I am better than you. Contemptuousness, right? To which then the partner gets the chance to say, Oh, wow! You're right taking responsibility, and we continue to have a conversation. We stay in the same room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I want to underscore something that I hope I did right, that you did right for sure. There, and it's a super important word to use.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know where I'm going. You see this like, go, please, please, please.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Allergic.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: They're listening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really appreciate this. Just hear these. I really appreciate this coffee, but I like a dark roast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really appreciate this coffee, and I like a darker roast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: those like that the the word. But I remember learning this in some customer service course I took

Dr. Daniel Kessler: 30 plus years ago as part of my early job, that word but negates everything that comes before they call that the the all negating. But so you say, I really love this. But now you said, No, I don't really love it. I'm just making that shit up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And if you say instead, I really love this, and I would like this. It now connects the 2 in a way that's positive. Yeah. And so important, like, if you find yourself using the word. But in a conversation with your partner, or in a request or a complaint, and complaints can be valid, as Gayle's gonna say more about hopefully in a minute.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Complaints can be valid, but the word and the word, and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: connects them and makes it a positive thing or potentially positive thing, a warm correction versus a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: One correction. I like that idea a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I know a loving, a loving rebuke.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: A loving rebuke, another good one. I often tell my clients that, but is subtractive.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and and is additive right from a from a mathematical perspective.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but an and I have 5 apples, but Dan took 2 of them. I now only have 3 apples left. You literally subtracted my from my apples right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I have 5 apples, and I gave Dan 3. Right now we have the addition of friendship and sharing and giving, and you know, and interpersonal work. So

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that's how I like to think of it. I like your salesman. Approach, too. I think both are valid. But you know Nope and and our partners are going to disappoint us at times, and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, and we have the right and obligation, maybe even to tell our partner

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm disappointed, or I didn't like this thing, but we don't want to make it about them and lay this heavy label on them and take away. Be subtractive from them. We want to let them know our displeasure so that we can improve our relationship. And and I'd like to have it this way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No relationship is supposed to be perfect. No partner is going to just know how you do the things, and you're allowed to talk about that, but do it in a way that issues a very specific complaint instead of destroying and taking down the person.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. And in a good, healthy relationship, this idea of the loving rebuke. I love you. I care about you. I want things to be better. I'm unhappy with this thing that you are doing, that you could correct, or that I would like you to correct.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That can be really healthy for a relationship. We get caught in a place where any sometimes couples get in a place where any correction or negativity or request for a change is seen in a really bad way, but sometimes those can bring a couple closer together. If the couple's healthy about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't. This thing that you're doing is causing me problems.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I would really like it if you didn't do this thing that you're doing because it's causing me problems can bring a couple closer together. People tend to do is not tell their partner when they're being unhappy until they get really pissed off, and they're in the middle of an argument, and, damn it, you do it. And they start like, you know, throwing all the negativity, and they've lost the opportunity to ask the person for change in a caring, loving way rather than bringing up their irritation in the midst of some negativity.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, so that's the 4 horsemen

Dr. Gayle MacBride: we've already addressed that perhaps there is a problem with self-report here. We're going to go ahead and assume. The facts are as presented.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I want to see this guy set some boundaries.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I want to see this guy go to his partner and say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I love you, and I really take joy in making you coffee in the morning.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but I also know I don't know enough about this, or I am not as exacting in the standards, and I'm really bummed that I don't make it in the way that you would for yourself. I just. I'm struggling to kind of hit that exacting standard. I don't have a better word for it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and I think I need to not make your coffee. Maybe I can lay everything out, and you can make it the way you prefer. He's allowed not to make the fucking coffee, and you can't do it in this really kind of High End way. I want him to say I'm gonna stop making the coffee.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You. You just said something really, really terrific there, that I think that we is getting missed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: The action of making her coffee isn't about providing her with the caffeine necessary to begin her day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's an act of love.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: He's doing this, and when she rejects the coffee in the way she does, she's rejecting this act of love.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and that's gonna feel shitty for him again assuming the fact pattern to be, as OP. State said, That's going to feel really awful like I did this thing of caring for my partner, and and you're just like shitting on it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know it. It's like what a what a what a missed opportunity to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So is because she could also say again, I really appreciate this. This is this is really lovely. And what a lovely way to start my day, and I'm really just not enjoying kind of the way you make it. I think I would prefer to take this action over or activity over, because I really really want this kind of in a specific way. This this coffee is really important to me, or something more loving and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Own it. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a place to own it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Be toast instead.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I am super persnickety about my coffee, like there's probably no one who's gonna make coffee the way I want it. So I so appreciate your doing this, and if you make this I'll make the coffee for both of us.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Wow!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know she has an opportunity here to own this, instead of saying, you don't make good coffee.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't like. I like it. I am persnickety. I'm particular, and so it would make me happier if I could do this, and you could do that. That would make me really happy again. Opportunities for healing here and bringing the couple together rather than driving each other away.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, so I think in this we are saying. Both could have approached the conversation differently there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: loving way to do this, and there are really, you know, terrible ways to approach it, and they certainly have fallen down this this rabbit hole. Now the question is, who's the asshole here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I. So if we accept accept everything OP is saying as fact.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Girlfriend doesn't look too good. I'm not ready to call her an asshole just because I don't

Dr. Daniel Kessler: get her side of the story, and I don't know whether this is true. But like if it's as is, she's at least

Dr. Daniel Kessler: she's she's certainly on the line.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I thought you were going with mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, she's more than mildly delicate. She's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Mildly dickish.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: She's if she's really being that demanding about the coffee like you have to use, you know, 43 grams of coffee and 200 degree, you know, 195 degree water, and the coffee and the water and the milk has to be at 1 87 degrees. She's being that particular instead of being thankful at all. But we don't know if she's like, Hey, thank you so much, and I really like it with the way they make it at this coffee shop, where they use 43 grams and 1 87 degree, whatever you know

Dr. Daniel Kessler: it. So we don't know the full story here, but but if it is as is, she's at least like got a toe over the asshole line if she's not

Dr. Daniel Kessler: fully there, and more than mildly dickish.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean, his feelings are hurt, and he's acting out of hurt feelings. That doesn't make it okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, there's a better way of. There's a better way. He could have approached this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There really is, I mean, when her pouring the cup of coffee out, though that one really that's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, you know, for me, I think

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that's where that's where she goes over the line. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: she did. She was more than toe over the line, pouring the coffee out. It was a it was a huge rejection.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: A slap in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's a that's a fuck you! That's a fuck. You.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That was a huge fuck. You.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That was that was seriously not okay. Now, of course, this doesn't speak to the whole of who she is. Right. We don't want to get into.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That was an asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It was. It was a total ask. Yes, I will go with that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That was a kid.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean I but I could totally see going. You know, it's not my, it's not my favorite, but like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, Thank you, I really appreciate it like drinking it, and like they eat.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Would you like to drink this instead? And I'll make a cup the way I prefer it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah choke it down. Do what you I just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, or choke it down.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm just. I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Suck it up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And and but and there are some times it's like, you know, what this just is. I'm really sorry, but this is just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but usually when it's really bad, like I've I've made stuff, and we we just all agreed as a family that this just wasn't good, and and then we kind of have a discussion about. You know this is, this isn't good. Let's just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Sure, or if I made it, and I screwed up, and I made it for my partner, and I can just tell it's not what my partner wants. I might dump it down, but I did it because I made it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right, and it's the difference between this not being to my preference. And this being truly bad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know I was eyeballing at some coffee the other day, and I like it was just. It was bad.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Unless you make it like tea or sludge.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I drink the sludge, I drink.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Just let you drink, only.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, coffee. The spoon should stand up in the cup and slowly sink to the side as if moving through moving through mud in in my world coffee should be should be, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: What did the Internet say?

Host: Michael: Oh, my, gosh, the Internet, like the comments were wild on this one. I mean, it was just kind of, so you guys, one of the things you often do is you're like, okay, let's massage the facts right? Like you're like, we can't imagine like

Host: Michael: in this particular situation, this. But what if it was this? Instead, the Internet doesn't do that. What they do is they just make assumptions. They're like, this is true. And then they like charge down this path so like there was this whole. There was this whole thread where somebody said.

Host: Michael: you are. You're you're trying to do a kind thing, but you never asked the girlfriend. If she wants you to make her coffee.

Host: Michael: she may enjoy this tedious, this thing that you see as tedious as a kind of meditation, that it is a thoughtful process that she takes some time for herself. And you're taking that over. So not only are you doing a shit job. But you're taking this thing away from her that she enjoys. And then they like charge down this path with that assumption. And it was kind of interesting, because I hadn't really thought about that. I mean, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: See where you'd go, but then it's on her to say, you know, this is my morning meditation. I really would prefer to keep this ritual.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Mean that that?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, I think the Internet runs away.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you. Yeah, thank you for making that point out. But I prefer to do it myself.

Host: Michael: They kept pointing out like they're young. They don't know, like, you know, they they're not having that kind of thoughtful, high brain, you know more mature kind of conversation. They're all. They're both making assumptions about each other. They're they're not wanting to poo poo it. But like, according to the OP. Obviously the girlfriend really didn't get a shit out of this coffee that he made. At least so.

Host: Michael: But I mean in general, like the breakdown is the vast majority said, You're not the asshole, and some of my favorite comments there were. If someone does something nice for you, even if it's not perfect, you say? Thank you, and move on. Dumping out coffee in front of the OP. Is a straight up, disrespectful. If she says that if she's that particular she can make her own coffee. Some coffee is better than no coffee fuck off so like that was one

Host: Michael: you're not that

Host: Michael: response right? Then there was a very strong but minor contingent of you're the asshole. And that was some of the argument about like you're taking this over for the girlfriend. You didn't ask blah blah! And then this was kind of a representative comment there, which was, if you know exactly how she likes it, and you still don't make it right? That's weaponized incompetence, which is like a fabulous phrase. But I think it's like overdone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I like the phrase weaponized incompetence a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't. I don't like the I mean again, that's making the assumption that she doesn't, that she wants to make it, and and if she wants to make it that it's on her to say, Hey, I would really prefer it

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to make my own coffee. I'm you know. There's so many opportunities here to do this better than she handled, and better than you handle it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Problem with this idea of weaponizing competence is, there are many benchmarks that need to be met here, and sometimes in a really complicated task that we are maybe under motivated to to really learn and internalize.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Then there's this assumption. You're going to be able to do it accurately and do it well and without mistake, whereas weaponizing competence is, I truly know how to do this thing, and it may even be relatively simple, and I'm going to feign. I don't know how to do it, loading the dishwasher, or washing clothes, or those kinds of things. I literally had this situation yesterday where I wanted something washed a really particular way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and my children were home, and I was going to ask them to do it. I thought, no, even if I say exactly how I want it to be done. It's just off enough from the usual direction, and if they get it wrong I'm going to have damaged laundry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and I said to them, actually, I take it back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm good.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Go ahead and switch those loads, because I really want this done a particular way. I kept the responsibility because I knew it was outside the norm of the basic tab.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Webinars. Incompetence is, I'm doing all the shit wrong all the time, and I'm just dumping bleach on that, and woo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, and I phrase, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: OP. Or OP's stance at all.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, I don't think so. I think I think this is this is born of of hurt, and I'm going to stick. I'm not. I'm not convinced

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm going to stick with like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: he's not an asshole. But he could have handled it differently if the story is as it is, she's really close, if not over the line I just don't want. I just want to. I kind of want to hear her side before calling her an asshole on this one. Certainly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, but jumping out the coffee, that one's hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Jumping out to be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Like that just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It was a Dick that was a Dick move that was totally a Dick move. Dumping out the coffee in front of him.

Host: Michael: So those were like the big contingents, and then there was an equal balance of everybody. Sex here, and no assholes here, and those went like everybody sucks. Here was essentially her reaction was way over the top. But if you consistently make her coffee wrong, like you're not paying attention, you need to try harder. So that was everyone sucks harder, everybody sucks here. No assholes here was essentially like this is a case of mismatched expectations.

Host: Michael: She's really particular, and you might be doing your best, but you're both failing.

Host: Michael: even though your intentions are good.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's lucky, but mismatch mismatch expectations is a great term here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I love it. I may use that because we often talk in doing couples work about

Dr. Daniel Kessler: things that are different but not wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that, and that so often like, I like it this way. And you like it that way. And we get like we've got personalizing it and getting angry at each other for things that are just

Dr. Daniel Kessler: different. I mean, I like really dark coffee. You like really light coffee. Who's right? We're both right, and it doesn't mean you've made your coffee wrong. It means it's wrong for me, and it doesn't mean I've made it wrong. It's wrong for you. And now, how do we navigate the difference? That's the challenge in a relationship. So I love the idea of mismatch expectations. I'm fortunately in a relationship where we both like to drink nuclear waste and call it coffee. So it works perfectly for us.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But if you don't like your coffee that way, if you come to my house.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I should not make each other's coffee.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, really, you're you don't like, I know I

Dr. Gayle MacBride: no, no, no, no, no, no, no! Sludge is not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'll have to. I'll have to next time we're we're at the same office. I'll have to pour you a cup of what I drink, and you'll just, or maybe a sample, maybe a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: As they say, like a sample like I think Costco size sample up in my eyes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Little Costco's eye sample. You'll have to taste what we drink in this house.

Host: Michael: I will happily drink your sludge. That sounds delicious to me. And one thing I was going to add when you guys were talking about but versus, and I couldn't help but think of Mrs. Weintraub, my English teacher, and and Gayle's English teacher, back in 7th grade. 8th grade. I don't remember.

Host: Michael: and she taught us about coordinating conjunctions. Right, like coordinating, makes it sounds like they go together, and they are Fanboys which are for and nor but yet. So so if you spell FANBOYS that's the acronym.

Host: Michael: and it makes it seem like those all work together, because really what it's doing is making 2 complete sentences work in harmony. But what you guys point out is they don't mean the same thing. Some are additive and some are subtractive. And I think that's a really interesting.

Host: Michael: I don't know that the

Host: Michael: OP. Would know what a coordinating conjunction is, necessarily, if you use that. But I as an English nerd, I couldn't help but think about that as well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But shout out to Mrs. Weintraub if she's still with us.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: He is not.

Host: Michael: Nice. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Lost her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But just to highlight. The the second, Dr. MacBride, on this call is a doctor of words.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Of words.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And such English things really do mean a lot to him so, and thank you in a meaningful way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But thank you to all those teachers that make such an imprint on us that 7th grade, it being a little while ago for the Doctors MacBride. They still carry Mrs. Weintraub's voice with them. Isn't that lovely, Michael? Take us out to the bonus conversation.

Host: Michael: Of course. Yeah. Well, I mean, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just good coffee or bad coffee.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Or creamed coffee, or black coffee.

Host: Michael: Please follow and share veritas views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the credits for that bonus conversation. In this case it's a new thing that Gayle has learned about. So we'll see what Dan has to say.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm all ears.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Reduced to a term for a concept.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and then the more it kind of

Dr. Gayle MacBride: settled in my brain. It got me kind of curious. So the the concept was coined in 2,004. It's called the region Beta Paradox

Dr. Gayle MacBride: region, Beta paradox. And this is a phenomenon that says that

Dr. Gayle MacBride: when people are in mildly uncomfortable situations, they may not take action, but when they become intensely uncomfortable, this may lead to a faster recovery from the severe problem right. And and so I had this opportunity to think about this idea. When people can recover more quickly, because the the level of their discomfort really pushes them toward making a change in this intense

Dr. Gayle MacBride: dissatisfaction creates a faster, maybe grappling for a coping strategy leading to to that, getting one out of that more intense discomfort.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: As opposed to kind of sitting in a less uncomfortable state for a longer period of time and part of the reason. This actually kind of percolated in my brain this morning was because I had an opportunity yesterday to actually meet and do some networking with 2 different groups of psychologists. And I thought, and I'm a really highly social person in endeavoring

Dr. Gayle MacBride: to build a private practice. You know, some of what we've done is grow our network. When I've been a part of larger organizations, that network is just kind of there, and I may reach out and talk with people. But I don't do it really, actively. And I haven't really pushed to make a lot of change, because I'm surrounded by a lot of people and being in private practice, you want to surround yourself with people to create opportunities for

Dr. Gayle MacBride: consultation and share expertise and those kinds of things. So, going into business with you, Dan, and shrinking the size of my network has created enough discomfort that I've then really been active to grow these social networks, and I was like again I was. I was at lunch with 1 1 psychologist, and I was. I was having

Dr. Gayle MacBride: snacks and drinks with with another group in the evening yesterday, and this this sense of more discomfort, of being more isolated has created this opportunity for me to really expand that social network. So I think this is kind of cool, and I want to ask you, and I want to ask our listeners, have you had a situation that you can look back on and see this region, Beta paradox at work, and if so, I want you to tell us about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I would love to read more about this, and I and I will go to the link in the show notes that Michael will inevitably be put in about this. But I had 2 thoughts. My 1st thought is, Thank you. I'm really glad that going into business with me has increased your level of discomfort and diss and need for change. But more than that, I think about when we, when sometimes I warn people who are in unhappy relationships

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like when they come in for therapy, you know. I'll say that therapy. Can. You know we're going to be shining a bright light on some of these discomforts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and so it has the chance of making a relationship better, because you're now going to be more uncomfortable and therefore change it for the better.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and carries the risk of ending the relationship sooner, because you're uncomfortable, and it's going, and that might make it feel worse for you that dialing up the discomfort if you can't fix it. So getting into therapy can both make a relationship better and stronger if that discomfort causes more work and can cause it to end. What it's more likely to less likely to do is allow it to continue

Dr. Daniel Kessler: at that mildly uncomfortable status quo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And so that's a really interesting concept. I'm looking forward to actually reading more about, because I certainly have talked about that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Clients like therapy this this, and I'm sure you've done that too, like this could be this therapy could actually cause your marriage to end.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of any procedure right? Like, I tell you, this is this is a risk. I just didn't have a name for it, and I think sometimes even people come to us because they're experiencing that dialed up discomfort. You know we see this in sleep like, Oh, you know, I've slept terrible for decades. But this thing happened. And now it's really bad. And now I'm going to seek treatment, and we can, you know, help really pull you into to sleeping better, really quickly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know, there's there's lots of examples of this. One of the examples on the Internet is simply, you know, if I live a mile from work. I'll walk to work, but if I live 2 miles from work I'm not going to walk now. I'm going to bike, and now I do more intense cardiovascular work, and I actually get to work a little sooner, and it's actually better for me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know, I've seen people say, Oh, my gosh! You know I finally got my numbers back on my a 1 c. And the doctor is saying I'm pre diabetic. And while I wasn't willing to change my diet before, like diabetes scares the hell out of me, and I don't want that. So now I'm going to make some real lifestyle changes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: As the the discomfort.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It. It does. It's all around us in in different ways. And so I'm really curious to hear what our listeners might drop in our mailbox in terms of changes they've made, because they got wildly uncomfortable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I remember, early on in my training, I was meeting with my clinical supervisor, and I told him about what I said, and he said.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: why'd you say that? I'm like well, my my client looked really uncomfortable, and I said that. And he he goes. And he and I said he said, did it make it more comfortable? I'm like, like, yeah, he seemed. He said, yeah, that was a mistake.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I was like, who? What do you mean he's like, well, he was finally, this is a guy he'd been working with for years. He finally got to experience some discomfort.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: He was just ready to cry, as you said, and then you stepped in and made him more comfortable. And now he never got to work on that thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I was like, Oh.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and it's 1 of the places where I learned that you know our job as therapists isn't always to make someone more comfortable and make them feel better sometimes. It's to really

Dr. Daniel Kessler: own in on those painful things that allow someone to work on it, and in the moment they might feel worse in the service of feeling better in the long run. And it was, and it was probably. And this is this is nearly this is actually 30 years ago now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And it was about it was. It was a couple a month or 2 later before we got to that point again.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And and the fella did do was able to do the work. Today. I would. Today I was absolutely like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I would, certainly. Oh, I I see I see the pay all right. I'm gonna hit this because this is an important place. So anyway.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Fascinating, too, that this was coined in 2,004.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But then our professional careers?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. And yet this has been a phenomenon around for much, much longer than that. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Would love to hear from people as well as you mentioned Gayle. I would love to hear from people whose discomfort caused them to finally discomfort got great enough that it caused them to act, because I'm sure there's lots of examples.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And to know there's a name for that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Host: Michael: Yeah, please reach out on the mailbag via either of our web pages, either veritaspp.com or veritasviews.com. I'll make sure to link those obviously as well along with the study, like Dan and Gayle talked about. But thanks for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other? Am I the asshole, debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today Gayle and Dan mentioned a couple of things:

• Andy Kaufman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTQzHvkpV_0

• How many potatoes and where did they come from: https://potatogoodness.com/potato-fun-facts-history/

• Mens rea: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea

• Dr. Daniel Kessler’s TikTok on Narcissism: https://www.tiktok.com/@drdankessler/video/7476587158728396078

• Dr. Gayle MacBride’s article with Parents Magazine: https://www.parents.com/narctok-and-why-teens-are-on-it-11687479

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi, I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride, and today with me is my business partner and friend, Dr. Daniel Kessler. I'm so excited to be here with you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You always do such a good job of keeping my! I don't know clinical judgment in check. I am excited to see what you have in store for us today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I don't know about that. But thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. No, I look forward. It's always fun to pick apart the questions that are brought to us. And, Michael, I can't wait for this week's question.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, thanks. Well, welcome, both of you, for any of the Newbies out there. If you don't know what am I? The asshole is essentially, someone has shared a scenario online and asked the Internet. And in this case us to weigh in on who is the asshole in the situation where information needs to be.

Michael MacBride: If there's personal information given, I have tried to clean it up and make a little more discreet, and and then, if you're new, also know, stick around through the credits. We always have some kind of bonus conversation. Today I am posing the question so.

Michael MacBride: I have something for both of our both of our test psychology partners. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right.

Michael MacBride: But

Michael MacBride: neither Dan nor Gayle know what I'm going to give them today. In addition to the question, I'm gonna throw their way. But this is the prompt I got for them. So I have to say. 1st of all, this is a little different than some of the other ones we've done. This is an old post. This has been around the Internet for a while, and it just it made me laugh.

Michael MacBride: And so I've kind of reimagined it as am I the asshole situation. It's kind of how it was originally posted was like, Oh, my gosh! I think I fucked up. Did I fuck up. And so then people weighed in. So it's kind of that format already.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right.

Michael MacBride: But I but I've cleaned it up and just kind of shortened it because it is actually a really long story, anyway. So this, this is what we got. This is the reimagined.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Game, time.

Michael MacBride: Middle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And such suspense.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh.

Michael MacBride: And and I should say, going into this, the OP. Does say, this is only his second

Michael MacBride: relationship they'd ever been in, but he never indicates how old he was, so we don't know he could be twenties or thirties, or whatever. But this is second relationship anyway. So the the topic is, am I the asshole for pretending I didn't know what a potato was at my girlfriend's family dinner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It is I, just I, this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So many thoughts just went through my head. Oh, my God!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Off the bat as being hilarious and mildly adorable.

Michael MacBride: Okay, so this is the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I want to hear more.

Michael MacBride: This is the succinct version of the story which is, let me tell you, I may have made the biggest mistake of my life. My girlfriend invited me to dinner with her parents, and as a naturally nervous guy, I wanted to make a good impression, so of course, my brain decided the best way to charm them was to do a little comedic bit.

Michael MacBride: When I saw baked potatoes on my plate, I thought it would be hilarious to pretend that I'd never heard of a potato before. I put on my best confused face and asked, What is this? Her parents naturally were baffled, but played along. At 1st I doubled down, acting amazed as they repeated, it's a baked potato, and I kept pretending like what

Michael MacBride: I'm encountering this new exotic food for the 1st time I decided to take a bite out of the potato, and what I did I made a high pitched noise and said, Whoa! That tastes very strange. Well, well, let me tell you, that was my fatal error. They did not find it funny.

Michael MacBride: not even a little. Instead of getting the laughs I envisioned. They just got more and more confused, and then increasingly irritated. My girlfriend was visibly embarrassed. Her dad outright called me out, demanding, I admit, that I was joking, but by then I was in too deep. I'd committed to the bit, so I just kept insisting I had never heard of a potato in my life.

Michael MacBride: Then, to really sell it, I took a dramatic bite and made a high-pitched noise, declaring, Wow! That does taste very strange. Well, that was the final straw. Her dad exploded and told me to get the hell out of the house. And now my girlfriend won't answer my texts, probably because I'm still maintaining that I have never in my life encountered a potato. Am I the asshole for not backing down? Or was I just misunderstood.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: What?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Somewhere out there in the world there are about a dozen

Dr. Daniel Kessler: former Boy Scouts now in their sixties, like myself.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: who think my name is Michael, because I started Boy Scout

Dr. Daniel Kessler: sailing camp, and I just told everyone my name was Michael, and I don't know why I did it. But for the whole week I was Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and as far as I know, I'm Michael. I've never encountered a single one of these people in the last 50. So 50 or so years, but like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so I kind of get it, because I think around Thursday we started on Sunday. It would have been really embarrassing to admit that I've been lying the whole week, that my name, in fact, was Dan, and not, or at the time, Danny, and not Michael. So I kind of get a little bit of where OP might have been at some point, would have gotten himself in too deep.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But, man, the situation sucks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, sucks! Oh, my gosh! Like I'm even trying to imagine as a parent you have your your child and their and their partner over for dinner. You're meeting this person for the 1st time, and they give you what is admittedly a strange reaction. Right? And you're the parent trying to absorb this. And how do you? How do you react

Dr. Gayle MacBride: when you think it is so universal? And I'm trying to imagine a place in the world where you would grow up, where you wouldn't have experienced a potato. So you know, you're a little incredulous on this. And this guy is doubling down. Okay? And as a parent, what I feel, what I feel

Dr. Gayle MacBride: had maybe you know. But I guess I you know you walk, that you would walk that line of incredulous and and disbelieving, and and yet wanting to be generous to to the fact that maybe this is entirely new to this person like, I don't know. I'm really empathizing with the parents, but not with the anger, because I think they they

Dr. Gayle MacBride: the anger was what's most inappropriate here. It's like at the end of the day. Who the fuck cares if this guy has ever had a potato or not had a potato, or if he conned you, and and you know, and started as a funny joke, or like, I guess.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: like the anger in the parents is what's really tripping me up here. It just seems inappropriate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It is, and and it's I

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I actually just feel I feel sad for feel it kind of like. Oh, like there's almost a slow motion, train, wreck happening.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: For sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And and, by the way, people asked, and I generally preferred Mike to Michael. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Most people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Those people call me Mike.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Thanks for clarifying. That's helpful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Comfortable. I just preferred it over, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but some called me Michael as well. But

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and so I but and and having had this Mike experience that I had like I heard this, and I'm like I could totally see how this guy like he starts out because he thinks it'll be funny as he said, Yeah, and then it falls flat.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so he amps it up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Now he's like, well, shit

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I I can't like. I can't admit that I did this thing because they don't see this as funny. They see this as me being a dick.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So now my choice in the moment while eating is to either admit I am a Dick, or try to get through it by doubling down. Now he clearly made a mistake, and if there's ever a case where the every good ROM-com could be solved by a good conversation by a conversation 5 min in this, is it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I and I and I get where the parents are coming from like there's no way you don't know what a potato is

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like. You grew up assuming that I'm assuming this person, you know, grew up in America, and there's

Dr. Daniel Kessler: potatoes are unavoidable like you're going to have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Across the world, regardless of the type of potato. I mean, there's there's

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Michael Link in the show notes how many different types of potatoes across the world. Maybe in some Asian countries. Maybe not. I don't know. They all originate.

Michael MacBride: In South America, and there are thousands. But yeah, they did circulate the globe. Then, for sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So like of all of the things. For this guy to double down on potato is kind of hilarious because it is so ubiquitous

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in some form or another.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. And if he didn't, and even if he didn't grow up here, if he's living in America, it would be hard to make it more than a couple of weeks without encountering a potato in some context or another. So it's clearly like the I'm sitting where the dad is from home going.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Come on like you're full of shit, and don't be an asshole like just

Dr. Daniel Kessler: just just fess up, just fess up, and then he's doubling down. It sounds like, and then tripling down with the this is really, you know, like, like now, I don't think Dad should have yelled and screamed, and all that. But at some point it's like dude.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Your joke isn't funny like that would have been my response to the point. Like, you know what? It's just not funny anymore. Like, it's cute. It's clever. I get what you're trying to do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm not buying it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I I totally agree. And oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: sorry guys, give me a second. Who who is the guy that played? Did the man? Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I totally agree. I am envisioning an Andy Kaufman bit here. Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's what it was.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Absolutely

Dr. Gayle MacBride: head he is this awkward, nervous Andy Kaufman type again. If you don't know who that is, we'll find some really great bit, and like it in the show notes, because he was a legend. But he was awkward, and he would carry a bit, and sometimes it wasn't all that funny, and you'd be like what.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And the thing about Andy Kaufman is that to this day since he died so young

Dr. Daniel Kessler: we don't know whether the bits he was doing like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like to some degree. There's a lot of question about whether he really was, why they really bought some of what he said, whether it was all a bit. And and I, you're right. This is this, has that Andy Kaufman feel to it where the guy's like, and you know, like Andy Kaufman the bits he did were so over the top. Ridiculous that, like he couldn't possibly believe this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And and yet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And yet not budging on the narrative.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: He's there's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No crack of a smile.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't. So 1st off I don't think I don't. I mean, we're not necessarily the rendering a verdict yet, but I just I 1st off I feel for everyone in the room.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Girlfriend. She's gonna be the one like what the fuck man.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Girlfriend.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: My parents. This is important. I trusted you to like make a good impression like she's got to be just dying inside.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, yeah, and he's got to be freaking out like, how am I going to get out of this? I can't believe I did this. This is so dumb of me like this was not because I get it like I, you know, spoiler, alert. I have some anxiety.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean, I'm a psychologist. So okay, so I get that, I get that the nervousness and wanting to do something. I get that. And I get the oh, no, this is falling flat like, I totally get that. And I get dads being like, Come on, Dude, you're being a dick. Don't do this like just, and I get the girlfriend going.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's a potato like, stop it like, why are you doing this? You're causing like, and everyone is just like like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. And again.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: unlike Roncom, we could have had a conversation. She could have called him up and said, what the fuck dude like don't understand what happened here. We've gone out for burgers and fries. I can't even tell you how many times. What do you mean? What what are you doing here? Oh, man, it was a bit. It felt flat. I felt so embarrassed I didn't know how to reel it back, and you get vulnerable with your with your partner, and then she goes to her parents and says, Okay, look, you know, he showed up. He didn't know what to say. He's really sorry, you know. Can we? Can we do a do over like

Dr. Gayle MacBride: this? Is not an offense worth cutting you off and not responding to a text message like what the heck.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, there was an opportunity. There are lots of opportunities for repair along the way. Yeah. And and one of the most powerful things we can do when we realize that we have fucked up

Dr. Daniel Kessler: one of the most powerful things we can do that's really relationship building and healing is to say.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I gotta just stop right here and say, I completely fucked up

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like I can't believe I was I. So this was a huge mistake on my part. And and we it's hard for us to do that. We think it's like people will look down on us or think of this as a negative. But if we can get in that moment, and just like I messed up so badly

Dr. Daniel Kessler: that brings people closer to us like we feel closer to the person who says I screwed up, and I hurt you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. Oh, for sure. I mean, how how powerful would it have just been if he had just said, sorry, guys, I was really nervous. I didn't know what to say. I thought it would be funny, and I totally miscalculated. I apologize. Can I start again like I can't imagine any parent in the world. Not going. Yeah, I get what it's like to show up at the table of your girlfriend's parents for the 1st time. Sure, man.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I've had those. I've had that dinner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know. I remember having that dinner as as a as a 20 year old young man

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like that dinner scared the crap out of me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I was so nervous, and they did things different, and it was weird.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So I get. I totally get where he where he is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I totally like I see everyone's perspective on this one, and so many opportunities, missed. The biggest opportunity missed was the kid

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like he? Instead of doubling, tripling down, he missed that opportunity, but everyone missed an opportunity here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But I'm sorry. Let's go back to this is really funny.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I really hope someday one of my children bring home a partner

Dr. Gayle MacBride: who sits down to the baked potato I've prepared

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and examines it with absolute just oh, gosh!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Wonder and amazement! And and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, you have to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, say to the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It would be hilarious.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You flip you flip it. We made the most exotic dish. You've probably never had it before.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's called a baked potato.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I like this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I love, that I love, that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Don't!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We've had.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And hopefully.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Had them before you've had them. Oh, my gosh! They're so expensive! They're so hard to find. Where did your parents find potatoes

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like you have an opportunity here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, I like it a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Don't do that, you know. Please don't do that. That's a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, no, but I remember. So when we were starting this this conversation, it did remind me of a conversation that I had with our show host here, and and the other Dr. MacBride, in this conversation before we had children, and you know and this idea of what do you teach children. And how do you do it? And you know they have absolute multiple minds. And you know, as parents we could, and we didn't. But, you know, like. Do you teach them that red is blue and and just, you know, like you could.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That don't do that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm not advocating for it, but you know it's a conversation that you have before you have children, and you realize

Dr. Gayle MacBride: there is power here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Use. Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Must be.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you. I've met your children. You've clearly used your power for good and not for evil, and I appreciate that getting back to this thing, though, I want to mention this issue that's come up before, as we're both former forensic psychologists of the idea. When we're deciding, we've decided long ago that in order to be an asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you have to have done something with intent to harm, or and or or in some way knowingly done, something terrible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I, while he walks up to the line with the doubling, tripling down.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I still think it's all at. It's all out of anxiety, nervousness, so I'm not willing to call him an asshole

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because he lacks that. And we're and link in the show notes for this term. Mens rea. He lacks this guilty mind that we need, in order to commit certain crimes, that there has to be some intent there, and so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: To harm. I mean, he did intend to create a joke right? I mean, he decided. He made a decision. He describes this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No point of. I'm anxious. I'm going to deal with my anxiety with humor.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right. One of the questions I have for potentially for our listeners is like, did he cross the line when he

Dr. Daniel Kessler: when he can, when he tripled down.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And the other thing you've mentioned earlier, Gayle did. Did Dad cross the line with his level of anger.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think that the dad, at least here, because I don't know that we had much from Mom. And again, according to the way the post is written. We don't actually know, you know. Dad could have been annoyed, or, you know,

Dr. Gayle MacBride: whatever like, just not amused and and interpreted it as anger out of this guy's extreme anxiety, because he's doubled and tripled down now, and he's in these deep waters. So we don't actually know how Dad responded, but, as described, I think Dad was not appropriate, and he kind of, you know, visits the Sucksville here area of behavior. If he was indeed as angry as described.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And it sounds like he may be the type of person who really doesn't take to being the butt of a joke very well, and is easily, you know, hit that shame, trigger, and so often, when we feel that shame, Trigger, get hit. Our response is to act in and speak with anger as a way to create self protection

Dr. Gayle MacBride: so as described. I think the attempt at humor created such anxiety in the dad that then that shame kind of came out as anger, and which unfortunately exacerbated this poor boyfriend's experience right of already being in heightened anger. So we really did this kind of toilet bowl swirl here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, of behaviors and choices! And unfortunately, everyone just shows up dirty.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Such a horrible situation. Really, really so, Michael, what are the? We're not. It doesn't sound like either. One of us is calling anyone here an asshole. But there certainly are behaviors here that were really problematic, and opportunities that were missed

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to, not to not that could have made this whole situation. Just a funny

Dr. Daniel Kessler: footnote in a in a wonderful relationship. But, Michael, what did the Internet say?

Michael MacBride: So yeah, the Internet was. I mean, this was pretty neck and neck, for you're the asshole. You're not the asshole and the not the asshole wins out like they definitely had the most votes. And but most of those comments were, you're a comedic genius, you know, and like along that line. Not like.

Michael MacBride: you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: He's not a comedic genius. He's not unless not unless it's funny as hell to completely screw up your relationship.

Michael MacBride: Yeah. And they did say, like, several of them did actually talk about like, you know, you didn't intend for this to go that way. You should have owned up to it at a certain point. But you know the father's reaction kind of

Michael MacBride: put you in a corner, you know. And so that was the. You're not the asshole here the father really is, and that was the the finger pointing there with the you're the asshole. It is, you know, really, everybody looking at like you did this to yourself.

Michael MacBride: like, you know, you came up with this bit.

Michael MacBride: You did this thing, and you didn't let go of the bit like there were lots of opportunities for you to get out before the father got to the point of saying, like you're fucking with us. Get the fuck out of my house. I'm not going to tolerate this anymore, which, like you said, you know, I'm sure, is a aspect of not liking to be the butt of a joke, and that shame part of it!

Michael MacBride: And

Michael MacBride: there were a couple of people who said, everybody sucks here. That was the 3rd biggest category, because, like the dad overreacted the you know, the boyfriend definitely like those 2, and we don't really get a perspective of the rest of the dinner table. So I like. I picture this dinner table with, like the big family gathered around, and like a variety like I wanted more of the spectrum of reactions like some people had to be laughing and thinking. It's funny I can't imagine otherwise.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Michael MacBride: But

Michael MacBride: The.

Michael MacBride: There were several people who pointed out they wanted to know what the high pitched noise sounded like that he made, which.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Woo.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: When is it so good? I try imagining that as well.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, it's it's just such a bizarre thing. And I think your example of Andy Kaufman's a great one, because he.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That is a good one.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, that was a good call, Gayle. But yeah, I mean, that was really where it was at. Was the not the asshole really then shouldered the blame towards the father. And I think you're right. I mean, I think, like the men's rea right like you didn't intend to create this situation.

Michael MacBride: But you did have outs. He had chances. He did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: He did. I would have liked, you know, if we bring in a tertiary character. I would have liked the girlfriend to show up a little bit more, and and be a partner here and help him bridge that gap back again. I don't think this is worthy of ending a relationship over, and I suppose we don't know that it ended. But she stopped calling him. She stonewalled him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah, there were. There were opportunities there missed opportunities here, did they? Did they? Did the relationship end. Do we know what happened down the road? Michael.

Michael MacBride: We don't. Unfortunately, even though it was an old post, I'd hoped that I would get updates, because sometimes you do, and see where a number of people asking for updates like at 5 years one year, 2 year, like people are asking for updates on these

Michael MacBride: that one.

Michael MacBride: And we never got one. Unfortunately, there there was a 1 of my favorite comments, was.

Michael MacBride: it was like, Sir, you're a comedic genius, and you have found the best way possible to break up in a relationship or to end a relationship or something like that. But yeah, anyway, thanks again for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just potato. Or what is this or.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And if you haven't had one, try them. They're delicious. They aren't

Dr. Daniel Kessler: delicious, especially like you get fry, you know. You can fry them, and they're really good if you fry them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Have you tried? Have you tried a potato fried.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Ride like the whole thing. You just take the whole thing, and just like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, no! You cut it up into thin strips like like, and then you you yes, and you put them in a deep and and oil, and you fry them, and then you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, man, don't tell me some people might even like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: would you dip them in anything.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Ketchup. I think Ketchup is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Catch up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, it's.

Michael MacBride: Ketchup.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is this tomato based? Never mind, Michael, take us out.

Michael MacBride: Wait? Is it butter or oil like? What do you fry it in?

Michael MacBride: Sorry, anyway, please follow and share his veritas, views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about well, I'm going to throw something their way, so we'll find out on the other side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Michael MacBride: thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Michael MacBride: so some people may not know. But as in addition to podcast part. I'm also kind of a behind the scenes guy at veritas, psychology, partners. And I couldn't help but notice that both of you did things recently related to narcissism. So, Gayle, you had an interview with Beth Ann for an article for Parade magazine about NarTok, which I had never heard of before.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That that was in parents just to.

Michael MacBride: Was it in parents? Oh, I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Some parents. Yeah.

Michael MacBride: You're right. It was in parents, because it was about the parenting like, what do you do when you see your child participating in our talk. That's right. And then, Dan, you were posting about a recent study about narcissism on Tiktok, and I just kind of was curious like one, I guess like what?

Michael MacBride: Why do you think that is something that we're talking about these days? But then, also, more importantly, like, what do people get wrong about this, because that was a lot of, I think what I was getting from your in general comments about narcissism is that this is kind of overused and misunderstood.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I'll just interject and say, like, I don't think that these 2 activities that Dan and I both had this week were in any way connected. They just happened to come up this week, and and I think because it's in the ether, and we're we're spending a lot of time talking about narcissism. And so, Dan, I'm going to let you answer first.st What do you think we get the most wrong about narcissism?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I think that like, like, we talked about this with gaslighting, too. People see behavior. That's a bit self-centered, or they see behavior. The person is focused on me

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and and just automatically jump to narcissistic personality disorder. And and we all have traits in us. We're all a bit selfish. We all do things that align. We all do things that we all disappoint our partners. Sometimes I think we jump to. This person is a narcissist. So I think what we get wrong is is labeling right off the bat

Dr. Daniel Kessler: behavior as necessarily due to narcissistic personality disorder. Now, when we actually do have a narcissist. The biggest mistake we make is not recognizing the core of narcissism, and the core of narcissism isn't a desire to show that you're better than everyone else. The core of narcissism is dealing with with your own internal belief that you are no good and worthless, which you defend against so powerfully by putting everyone else down.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and and in doing so, unconsciously

Dr. Daniel Kessler: doing so, make yourself feel like you're not worthless.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So that's the those are the 2 things I think about narcissism. We get wrong most of all. I don't know, Gayle. Your thoughts.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I I completely agree, and thank you very much for stealing my answer. So I'll give a slightly different answer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: because

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that would be really uninteresting for the purposes of the podcast to be like, Yeah, I am going to go ahead and say that you know, I think because we are having these conversations, and we're putting them out there in really public spaces. We forget that this is a diagnosis that should be given by a qualified and trained professional that we are really quick to apply this label in

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in casual ways, as if this isn't a very serious way of interacting with your world interacting with other people. And you know it comes from it comes from a longstanding pattern, and we forget that it really should be a mental health or a psychiatric mental health provider

Dr. Gayle MacBride: who is qualified to make this diagnosis before we slap a label on someone. So I just really want to caution people using this word. It is a bit dangerous.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think to some degree we're participating unwittingly in a grand experiment in medical students, disease.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And med student's disease. It's a tongue-in-cheek term, but it's a real phenomenon, and that's that medical students as they go through. They learn a little bit about each thing. And as they learn this, okay, this symptom means this disorder. They begin having anxiety that they themselves, or some family member of theirs has this disorder based on this small amount of information. And then, of course, as they progress through, they recognize the bigger picture. And that stops happening. But it's very common in

Dr. Daniel Kessler: especially 1st year medical students. And so with with Tiktok and Instagram reels and Reddit and all of these social media platforms out there. People are getting essentially medical students disease. And we're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, no, that's a really good point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: My, oh, my partner has narcissistic personality disorder. I have, ADHD. I love the fact that we're making people aware of these disorders like, oh, I need to go get help because I have symptoms that look like this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's terrific. But I think we people are unfortunately like seeing this and going. Oh, this must be me, or Oh, this must be my partner! And then acting on that information as if it's factual without getting a good diagnostic workup done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So there you go, Michael!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: More to add to that, Gayle, or do I proudly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, you did a great job. I really appreciate you bringing that up, because I do remember, as a early psychology student looking through the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual from which we pull our diagnoses and going. Oh, my.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And then having that thought of like, Oh, wait right multiple contacts and deep rooted, you know, enduring patterns and some of those things and going. You know what I mean like, there is that phenomenon as you learn about this. And and unfortunately, you know, a 3 min tech talk can't really take you through the nuances of of diseases and disorders and personality styles. And

Dr. Gayle MacBride: yeah.

Michael MacBride: Thank you, you know. And I actually, I'm thinking back to last week's episode with Dr. David Nathan, one of the things he brought up. That, I think, is is useful to think about like with Tiktok, and that kind of thing is, you can hear

Michael MacBride: tricks and tips for dealing with these things. And even that doesn't necessarily mean that you have that condition. But you could still benefit from those things. So if you hear something online that resonates with you, and it works in your setting, I think, like, you know, make list making, or any of these other things that that help with some of those things. You can absorb those without going. Oh, I have ADHD or.

Michael MacBride: I'm a narcissist, or whatever it might be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Or my partner's a narcissist. Maybe I learned from the video that I need to set healthy boundaries, and this is what a good boundary looks like in a relationship where I'm feeling this way without applying the legal.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, definitely. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, Dr. Daniel Kessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride are joined by Dr. David Nathan. David Nathan is a Licensed Psychologist who lives and works in St.Paul, MN.  He is the father of twin 12-year-old daughters.  He is primarily a child and adolescent psychologist. He works with clients on issues including ADHD, Autism, Anger Management, Anxiety, Depression, PTSD, and adoption. He is the east region lead for outpatient mental health at Allina Health, a large healthcare organization based in Minneapolis, MN. He also has a side private practice where he provides ADHD and ASD testing in St. Paul, MN.  In the rare moments when he is not being a parent or a psychologist, Dr. Nathan likes to travel, attend live music performances, read, spend time with his friends and family, and play piano. He can be found online at David Nathan PsyD: https://www.davidnathanpsyd.com/

They also mentioned the following in this episode:

• PDR—which stands for Physicians Desk Reference: https://www.pdr.net/

• How To ADHD by Jessica McCabe: 

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic trio of psychologists today.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi, I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride, and I am here today, of course, with Dan Kessler, my business partner and fellow psychologist. But we are being joined by Dr. David Nathan.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm so excited because now we finally have someone who works with children and adolescents joining us. He is an expert in ADHD. Autism, anger, management, anxiety, depression, Ptsd and adoption. I can't wait to hear how all of these specialties come together in our conversation today. David not only is a wonderful psychologist and quite frankly consultation partner. He also, in addition to working for a large regional health care system

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in a private practice where he provides assessment and testing for the aforementioned diagnoses he likes to travel.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: attend live music, and apparently perform live music. Maybe I don't know you. You play the piano, David.

Dr. David Nathan: Yeah, I'm not doing any shows. But yeah, no

Dr. David Nathan: Covid. I I took up piano and I really really enjoy it. So it's it's kind of fun seeing how practicing a little bit every day, and sometimes a little bit more than a little bit every day. You can really make improvements over time. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Beautiful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, mostly for friends and family at home, or or, you know, at someone's house. But yeah, no, I really really enjoy it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, fun! Actually, our our good friend plays the music for our podcast and he is really just kind of, you know, kind of one of those at home players, too. He's been trained over the years and played for a long, long time, but Matthew Reddington does the music for us, and he's just just a cool dude.

Dr. David Nathan: Oh, very cool. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Anyway. Dan, welcome.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi, yeah, this entirely. But you are here. You're uncharacteristically quiet.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know I'm giving space, other voices giving space for other voices.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So glad to be here, really looking forward to what Michael has brought to us today. Michael, you have a quandary.

Michael MacBride: Yeah. Well, welcome all 3 of you this morning, and for any of the Newbies out there, if you don't know what we're talking about or what this podcast is. In short, I've gone out. And I found a scenario online where somebody has asked the question, Which is, who's the asshole here, and you know, that's what we're going to hopefully determine, or at least

Michael MacBride: have a thoughtful discussion around. I guess I'll say that. And where there's been any kind of identifiable information. I've tried to make it a little more discreet, and, as always, or if you're new, you should know, stick around through the credits. We always have some kind of bonus conversation. So, but neither Dan nor Gayle nor David know what I'm going to throw their way. So today this is the topic we got. The headline is, Am I the asshole for telling my girlfriend to go back on her ADHD medication.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, there's more.

Dr. David Nathan: Wow!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. David Nathan: Yeah, is, yeah, is there anything else? Like, let's let's do some more context here.

Michael MacBride: Of course.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Contacts would be good. Yeah.

Michael MacBride: And this is one where the the people involved in it are adults, but young adults. So they are 20.

Michael MacBride: Be an adult question. Yeah.

Michael MacBride: 20 and 22. The poster, the poster is male. He's 22, and his girlfriend is 20. So, anyway, this is what he says. My girlfriend and I have been dating for 3 years. She was diagnosed with ADHD about a year into our relationship, and things have made more sense. After that we've agreed she'd start medication. She stopped. Let's see. Sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Have agreed she'd start medication.

Michael MacBride: I know it's it's weird. Sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Instead of his. If she starts medication or not.

Dr. David Nathan: I think we're probably in agreement. There's gonna be the details that are probably differentiate our answers here.

Michael MacBride: Probably. Yeah, okay, but yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Already. We're already there, with.

Dr. David Nathan: A bit of annoying.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's on my part. But go ahead, Michael.

Michael MacBride: About a month ago. I guess so. She'd been on medication for about 2 years or so. About a month ago she stopped, due to severe side effects which she doesn't really describe.

Michael MacBride: I tried to be supportive, but she's been hyper focusing on reading, and it's starting to wear on me. She's currently working towards a publishing degree, but struggles to concentrate. Now she's trying to read 100 books before quarantine ends and has already finished over 50. I'm proud of her, but it literally is all she does. She's neglecting basic self-care, like showering or brushing her teeth.

Michael MacBride: A few days ago I suggested she take a break and spend more time with me, which led to a heated argument about going back on her medication.

Michael MacBride: she insisted. She's doing fine without them, though to me it's clear she isn't. Her parents have since texted me, saying I upset her, and her friends think I need to be more understanding about her, ADHD, I'm trying, but it's difficult when she's like this. Am I the asshole for pushing her to slow down and reconsider her meds.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Reconsider or demand. She start them like the the headline feels maybe a little bit click Baity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: wow! There's there's a lot packed in here. But let's start with our ADHD expert. What? What are your thoughts about? ADHD Meds, and why people might choose to go off of them.

Dr. David Nathan: Well for me the question she mentioned side effects, and people can have side effects to ADHD medication and a lot of times. It's not just the medication itself, but how much people are using? I don't prescribe medication. I'm a Psyd, not an Md. But I work with

Dr. David Nathan: people every single day when I'm seeing patients that take ADHD medication. So I think if someone's having a hard time, probably the 1st thing I would do is talk to your primary care provider or psychiatrist, and see maybe you want to upper or lower the dose and see if that helps. And then you know, if you kind of try. Different doses maybe go to a different medication. But that's a conversation you'd have with the primary care, Doc. But yeah, there's issues that people have

Dr. David Nathan: with anxiety that can be a big one. People can feel really, really jumpy, really nervous. People can lose their appetite. People can have difficulties with sleep. Most people don't have these side effects is my understanding, but they happen to enough people that they've seen some patterns, and it could be associated with the medication. So I would talk to your primary care, Doc, about that. If you're having side effects

Dr. David Nathan: so I'll I'll leave it there. I feel like there's so much more to get into.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I.

Dr. David Nathan: But yeah, okay, I kind of said my piece.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, I want.

Dr. David Nathan: Danielle. I've been.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I'm itching. I'm itching to jump in here as always. No, and I mean so so 1st off, like, if she wants to quit her meds. That's obviously she's the cheap that's her her business.

Dr. David Nathan: Completely, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And at the same time there's bigger issues here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If she's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know ADHD and and and Dr. Nathan, please correct me here because I do treat people with ADHD. But it's not my area of specialty. And if they really, someone really needs like, I just need to treat me, ADHD. I tend to refer that person out, but I treat people also happen to have ADHD as part of their presentation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but my understanding is that these symptoms of not not engaging in self-care.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean that to me speaks to something potentially bigger than than the just the ADHD. And I and I, and I don't know that he can force her to go back on her, or ever should push her to go back on her medication.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I do think that a loving, caring partner is going to be like you need to get some help and look into this further. If someone has stopped engaging in self-care

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and then.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think it's a very delicate conversation between 2 relationship partners to say, Hey, I noticed when you were on this medicine, these kinds of things were happening routinely, and I care about you. I'm worried that they're not happening now that you're not on those medicines right? You can. You could approach it as a conversation about what you noticed. But you can't demand someone take a medicine, especially if she's complaining about the side effects which can be pretty

Dr. Gayle MacBride: uncomfortable. I had a family member who was taking medicines, and it really upset, set their stomach and like it wasn't the appetite restriction so much as

Dr. Gayle MacBride: his stomach hurt, and you know there was no way that you could continue to demand someone take a substance that was feeling like it was doing harm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But I agree, you know, with Dr. Nathan. It's it's a conversation with the prescriber, hey? This medicine and side effects are not working, and it doesn't matter. I mean, ADHD, depression, anxiety, any of these medicines that you're taking, if they're causing a side effect that is impairing your functioning. Otherwise you need to have that conversation with the prescribing provider to see if there are other options, and in this day and age I mean, Dan, you and I were just having this conversation about how big the Pdr. Is like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: you know, versus in the eighties versus versus. Now here into 2025, we have a lot of medicine options. And you know a lot of times when they're doing medication research, they're looking to decrease that side effect profile. We have a lot of options. So go back and have that that conversation.

Michael MacBride: Wait! What is PDR.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, thank you for the news. That's correct.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It is the medication, the place where they aggregate, and and put all of the information about all of the medications that are available, I guess. Probably only in the Us. I'm gonna let you noodle and make sure I'm right on that, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Will, but he'll he'll figure it out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, he will. But you know it tells what the medicine is, what it looks like. I think it has pictures of the medicines and generic and and brand name. And you know it's it's huge because we have so many options. So it's it's a

Dr. Gayle MacBride: yeah. It's a reference that your your physician is using to look up all of that information because they can't possibly know every medicine and every side effect, and so on and so forth.

Dr. David Nathan: And I would also say, when it comes to ADHD, hyper focusing is part of the profile, you know, having the psychologist say these things called preferred activities, things, the act of doing it. We enjoy it the more you do it, the more you like it. I mean, we get tired of it eventually, but it's like eating ice cream. I love ice cream so it's like, I don't watch cold stone. You know the cold stone is this great ice cream place, and they have like 3 sizes. There's like it. Love it, and got to have it. If it was up to me I'd have got to have it all the time, because the more the better.

Dr. David Nathan: And ADHD is kind of like. There's something I like doing, man. I want to do that all the time. So if this person is really into literature, I could say, like, Yeah, I totally want to read. And those non-preferred activities, the activities that

Dr. David Nathan: we do it, but it takes energy from us. It's draining. It's not enjoyable doing chores and tasks like that.

Dr. David Nathan: Tons of people don't like, you know, brushing their teeth and things like that. So if they're at home, and they're just kind of like hanging out. And they're not going out, you know, things like that. And it's like man today. What I really want to do is I want to read some books, you know. I can totally see that is ADHD right there like that. I mean once again, I don't know the situation. I'm not talking to the people, but just hearing this, I would say like this definitely sounds like this could be just ADHD and someone might not understand that.

Dr. David Nathan: But also, I think once again, you don't tell other people to take Meds. If you don't like it, you can decide how you want to have a relationship with the person. But and I think this is also an issue. I work with a lot of young men.

Dr. David Nathan: and I think there's a lot of really bad information out there for young men right now about what appropriate behavior is, it can be very, very confusing. But I could see someone thinking that it's appropriate for them to say something like this, and really, innocently like thinking like this is the right thing to do and not realize. Like, sir, you are really, your intentions might be good, but you are really outside of what's appropriate, and you might feel very justified. This like this might be something very clear to you that you feel very strongly about. This

Dr. David Nathan: doesn't matter like this is still something that's wildly inappropriate. We teach kids certain things. You don't say certain things to people. You don't do certain behaviors. We try to teach kids that in elementary school and kindergarten. And as it gets older it gets more confusing because a lot of times in movies and TV, we see people acting in really inappropriate ways. It seems really cool.

Dr. David Nathan: But but yeah, I would, I would absolutely say, telling someone to take medication or don't take medication. It is not unless they're specifically asking, Hey, what do you think about this? And even then I would say, tread lightly, because it's a very, very sensitive personal subject, and

Dr. David Nathan: you are definitely not on safe ground unless you are their primary care provider or psychiatrist. And then someone's coming to you. And you're the expert, and they're coming to you specifically about this. Then you've got a lot of space to talk about it. But if you're not that person, this is not something for you to discuss with them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'd like to massage the facts here, as we often do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Want to underscore something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Just said, which is that right? In the beginning of what you're talking about, you're talking about the hyper focus and preferred activities.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And we need to keep in mind that part of the fact pattern before we massage it. Dan is. This was apparently during Covid, right? So we heard in the scenario that this individual wanted to read 100 books before the pandemic was over. And so clearly this person is not going out is not socializing. So those preferred those less preferred activities, brushing teeth and showering and activities of daily living that way maybe seem also less important, because

Dr. Gayle MacBride: who's gonna know? So I just want to underscore that a minute. Dan.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have. I want to just change the OP's question here a little bit, because he's saying, Can I force my girlfriend to take medicine or something along those lines.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But here's the question that I'm actually really curious about y'all's opinions of of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: what if we change that question to like? I see my partner is having a mental health crisis or a medical crisis, and they are refusing. They're telling me they don't need to see a doctor. They don't need to go get help.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: How pushy should a partner get

Dr. Daniel Kessler: when they see their partner? Not necessarily to take this medicine or that medicine. But what's the role of us as partners if we see our partner refusing to get help.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So if we massage the facts a little bit, and the question is, am I the asshole for telling her she has to go see a doctor? She has to get that she that I really want her to go get help, because I'm worried for her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I, that's that's a really hard.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What does that do to what does that do to your.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: We have this couple in a 3 year long relationship. And so clearly, there's a level of commitment here. And so you're asking, you know. How pushy do you get when there's anything on the table that they're maybe neglecting, that that

Dr. Gayle MacBride: seriously may be harming their health.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think the line is blurry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I put you on the spot here a little bit, because I think this is a tougher question. We can all pretty much agree. You don't tell someone you have to take this medicine, or you can't take this medicine. That's just not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right. Yep.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But well.

Dr. David Nathan: I think some younger people not might not realize that. But but I think

Dr. David Nathan: with with some seasoning experience and and socialization, we understand that, but I can see how someone who's in their teens or early twenties might not fully understand.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sure, sure, sure, we in this room agree that that would be inappropriate probably most of the time, or, if not almost all the time. But but like, when is it okay to be to get like at what is too pushy? If your partner's like, Yeah, I know, you see a problem.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and your partner's not addressing it, and their their health is suffering or their mental health is suffering.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: How pushy do we get.

Dr. David Nathan: I think it's an excellent question. I think it's something that I wish we talked about more in our society, and maybe even like middle school or high school.

Dr. David Nathan: and I think something that that I would think about. And and I would probably kind of work with clients about. Say, just kind of recognize your limits. You can't control the people period like you can't do it. You might say

Dr. David Nathan: I'm really concerned about this, or I'm seeing these difficulties. I'm seeing, you know, and and I'm worried about you and kind of open up the conversation. I think there's so many situations where it's like, just dip your toe into it.

Dr. David Nathan: and just kind of like touch the topic, and see where they go from. There, do they say? Well, tell me more about that. Then once again, I would say I would go really gently, you know, really gently, probably not even too. It's probably not. I've seen some of this stuff, and I'm concerned about that and see what they say. Because you were really talking about sensitive subjects here. You're talking about very sensitive subjects here.

Dr. David Nathan: I think there's a way to do it very, very gently, very, very gently, where you just kind of go

Dr. David Nathan: teeny, tiny step and and say, you know, I'm worried about this, or I'm concerned about this. And you kind of create some space for them to say something.

Dr. David Nathan: but I think jumping from you need, you know, like, like, I'm having this thought that you know, I know what the solution is, and here's what you need to do like that is such a gigantic jump to take I'd be concerned about that. I think there is a space to tell someone that we care about. You know I'm worried about this, and then see what they say, and if they're not, don't want to talk about it, then the conversation's over.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I would say, in addition to that, like, I like that as a starting place. But I think there's a direct relationship to the level of impairment or harm to that individual and the level of pushiness. But there's also a like a 3rd dimension to that, which is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: how much am I responsible for that outcome. So you know, in a relationship where someone is clearly in imminent danger to themselves. Yes, right intervene. But it's not anything more than maybe a safety check, and you hand it over to someone else, and you create that opportunity for that person.

Dr. David Nathan: To be safe. But you are not taking charge and being responsible for that right, because that is way likely way beyond your skill set, especially if you're involved with that person like it's it's not. It's not your job. But if you have a reason to believe that that person is in danger you want to. Do. You want to deliver that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That

Dr. Gayle MacBride: what's the word? I'm looking for that help, I guess. Really, really quickly. And and you probably need to be really pushy about it, you know. Similarly, if you know someone was actively having a heart attack.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, you call in medical resources. That's what you do, because, you know that's the right thing to do, and you and you intervene

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and I can't really think of an instance where you wouldn't, where you wouldn't want to do that. But you know, when you have a partner who is neglecting hygiene, not brushing teeth, kind of maybe doesn't smell really great, you know, that. Does that present an eminent risk to them? Probably not

Dr. Gayle MacBride: it get that ground gets squishier.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, this is no, no, I think what I want to do with this one is, change the fact pattern and then answer the the the.

Dr. David Nathan: The new fact pattern, the new fact.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, because I think that there are times. And and you probably you all probably had this experience as well like, it's I do a lot of. I do all my work with adults, and I often I really like to have their partner come in for a visit fairly early on.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: if that's workable and the partner's amenable, and the and the client is amenable, because I find that sometimes the data I'm getting from their partner is more accurate

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because we have trouble seeing for ourselves and the partner that that partnered information is really important.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not not all the time, but but often enough. And and sometimes I just do the like. Okay, would you check in with your partner? What do they want you? You know. What does she want you to be. I work with mostly with men or a couple. So what does she want you to be to be working on here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not because I want to do the partners bidding necessarily, but because it gives me greater insight

Dr. Daniel Kessler: into what other people are seeing. And I try to do that with that person in the room if I can, and here's some of the situation where where he may be having a greater degree of insight into her level of impairment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and and if he's just pushing her to get help, I may be okay with that. I'm not okay with her telling and telling him her she has to take her medicine. But I'm probably okay with him, being fairly pushy about going and getting help, because some things like that that the hygiene thing is usually where the line is crossed. Assuming OP. Is telling us accurate information which we always worry about.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. But again, to Dr. Nathan's point, you broach that conversation from a loving and caring space.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hey, honey, I'm really worried about you. This is this is really different than what I've experienced with, you know, in you for the last 3 years, and and I'm wondering if you're open to hearing kind of my concerns here, and you start to tread gently and lightly, and then open that conversation up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and everybody wants to be told they smell bad.

Dr. David Nathan: Right. And I think it's 1 thing I've been thinking about is like, Oh, I gotta say is, when I was 20 years old, when I was 23 years old, man, I was a very, very, very different person, you know. Someone said. You know, if you had one wish, like one reasonable wish. You know that has involved time travel. What would it be? And I said I'd like to go back to my like late teens, early twenties and tell myself a couple of things, you know. So that is very real. I'm not trying to be like, wow! I know so much more of this person. You learn these things through experience. You learn these things through

Dr. David Nathan: things that

Dr. David Nathan: I have made a ton, and that's where this is coming from, not from, you know. I'm so smart hopefully, this is helpful to someone. But in a, you know, learn from from other people who've been through it. And these are things that they've learned through suffering and difficulty that this is a better way to do it for ADHD, especially for someone who's 20.

Dr. David Nathan: I'm not sure. Hygiene is that big of a deal like the number of people that I talk to like. I hate brushing my teeth, and I hear that all the time I hear that all I hate taking a shower, and I guess part of me is like, Okay, I hear, you know. Have you had a cavity, and a lot of people know I haven't had a cavity like. Wait till you have a cavity, you know I had a cavity when I was in college, and it's like having a cavity is way worse than brushing your teeth, you know, like, I know that from experience. So like, yeah, it is a hassle brushing your teeth. I'd much rather be doing a lot of other things than brushing my teeth, but if you have a cavity

Dr. David Nathan: you will never question brushing your teeth again. I just promise you, so you can take my word for it, or you can have the experience. And some people more likely to have cavities, and some people are less likely to cavities and blah blah blah. But you know this, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure kind of things. But IA lot of people with ADHD, one of the ways I talk about the mind with a lot of folks with ADHD. It's like, it's like a cell phone battery. And you know, when we do things, we enjoy kind of recharges that cell phone

Dr. David Nathan: a battery when we do things we don't like, it kind of uses it up, and when we're low we feel crummy. And a lot of times people with ADHD. They go through that battery a lot faster. That charge gets used up a lot faster than for typical people. So I find a lot of people with ADHD. They really try and minimize the stuff they don't like doing.

Dr. David Nathan: It's like, what are things that I have to do like? Oh, you know, I'm in school. I got to write that paper. I got to do this big project

Dr. David Nathan: that's gonna take a lot of energy, a lot of these other things that are kind of like day to day things. I'm just not going to do that right now, because I just don't have the energy for doing it, because I've been doing all this other stuff, etc. So once again, because the ADHD context, I think a lot of times if it's not ADHD like, oh, they're not doing hygiene. That's kind of a red flag, but for me it's like, well, it might be a red flag, or it might not. I would want to dig in there a little bit. Okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I know, yield to your I will yield to your to your greater knowledge and experience it. It. I, when I'm working with folks with ADHD. It's always something, and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: they're not coming in like primarily, for.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Depression.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: 88.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm seeing depression and anxiety and or some other problem grief. And so I really am keying on that thing. And it sounds like what you're saying, David, is that you're not going to key on that quite. You're going to pay attention to it. But it's not going to. It's like I'm hitting the fire alarm on this, and you're like, let's keep looking at it.

Dr. David Nathan: Well, well, part of it's also the age, you know, for, like a 20.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay.

Dr. David Nathan: I remember when I was in college, like I was, I went to a small Liberal art school, and I was the only person on campus. Maybe that made my bed every morning.

Dr. David Nathan: You know, I go studying other people. Yeah, I love making my bed, because at night I just like I see. Look at this like I like getting into a bed that's made. It just feels so much more relaxing for me than opposed to like to like yanking like a sheet. That's just kind of like, I don't know. It's just. It's just like an aesthetic thing or something. It just feels much more like

Dr. David Nathan: calming and relaxing. You know it's just no one else. I knew no one else I knew on campus did that, and people thought it was bonkers. So I think there's different things that that people like. So I think at 20 something like the room's not clean. If they're 16 years old, their room's not clean. That's a very different thing than if someone's 40 years old, and they're not taking a shower.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay. You know what.

Dr. David Nathan: So. So I think, like once again, that the hygiene thing depends on the context. So for 20 something, especially during Covid.

Dr. David Nathan: you know, I just like maybe, but not, you know. If it was. If it was somebody who's, you know.

Dr. David Nathan: got like a professional job, then it's you know, and you've got to go out and say, stuff like that like, yeah. Then I think it's more appropriate to me. It's a bigger issue that they're not taking the kind of not taking care of themselves, because then those not taking care of themselves is kind of an indicator that things are things are awry, but in that someone's 20 years old. It's Covid, it's ADHD.

Dr. David Nathan: I would want to dig into it more to figure out. Is this not taking care of themselves? Or is this kind of? I'm using all my energy to read all my books.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I think about like you've just pointed something out to me that I'm just going to be really annoyed about, which is that at age 60. I've clearly forgotten a little bit about what it's like to be 20, and I'd like to think that.

Dr. David Nathan: Work with so many 20 year olds. It's very easy for me to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I.

Dr. David Nathan: Mind.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: As you're describing making your bed in college. Maybe I shouldn't admit this publicly, but I do remember, as a college student life is very different now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: as a college student like, you know, the sheets would go home at the end of the semester, and then they'd get washed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I'm mortified by this. Today, like 60 year old Me is horrified by this behavior, but I'm fairly certain that at no point during the semester did the sheets leave the bed like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Were they.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's gross like awful and.

Dr. David Nathan: Grossed out by both of you guys. Okay, all right. But you know what I know. I'm the odd one out here, I know.

Dr. David Nathan: Oh, no! Oh, no! I'm totally with you there.

Dr. David Nathan: So many comments to me when I was in college about like, what are you doing? And I'm just like, yeah, it became enjoyable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: On your side, David, but I'm a girl. So my experience of that.

Dr. David Nathan: Well, I thought you were saying like, Oh, yeah, I never. I never watched it, men. It didn't matter. It did not matter like I was the only person that I knew

Dr. David Nathan: who people walk in. They're like people would make comments like, did your mom come visit you like all these?

Dr. David Nathan: No like, no, but but yeah, no lots of comments about that. So I know, I know. But for me it felt very, very, very. It felt very satisfying. It was very, very fulfilling to me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. David Nathan: And you know a minute or 2 making the bed. But.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That feels awesome.

Dr. David Nathan: Yeah, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: David, we need to render some. Yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I want to go back to something. So, David, I think you and I sat down for coffee one day. I think you were the person who shared the resource how to ADHD.

Dr. David Nathan: Yes, oh, man!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think.

Dr. David Nathan: She is fantastic.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, we're gonna.

Dr. David Nathan: Yes.

Dr. David Nathan: Here. Because great. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: She said something that like really helped click, which is now versus not now. And, ADHD, this idea, I'm pretty.

Dr. David Nathan: Yes, 100.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think this person in this particular quandary that we've been talking about is maybe really struggling about now versus not now right. And in these books are very much now, and I'm in it, and showering and brushing my teeth. These are things I don't need to do right now. They're not now. I don't need to be clean now, and so I think that's also often a struggle for individuals across the lifespan with ADHD. But I was recently reminded, as I was talking to one of my children who has ADHD, and they lovingly said to me, I think I'm struggling with now versus not now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I was like, Oh, my gosh, this makes so much sense. Here's how we do this. Yep, we're all on board like just identifying. That's where I'm stuck now versus not now, was just eye opening for all involved in the conversation. So those of you who have ADHD out there, and you're struggling to do a thing, ask yourself, is it really just the problem of it's just not now.

Dr. David Nathan: And one more thing I'll add a lot of people that I talk to have. ADHD. There's a whole issue with like I can brush my teeth, but I have to brush my teeth again, like I'm not actually like moving the ball forward. It's like, and when we talk about changing that it's just like, Oh, this is so tedious! It's like I get it. So I think there's certain tasks. It's not like getting my paper done like once I get my paper done, or once I get this thing done, it's done. I never have to do it again. It's like, so I think there's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: There we go!

Dr. David Nathan: That are just even more irritating and more frustrating for people.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: When they do.

Dr. David Nathan: Phd, and that's just gonna again, you know, like and and okay, what are the strategies that we still have good hygiene and and do that. But like there's certain tasks are just going to be less fulfilling

Dr. David Nathan: to people they need just a little bit harder. So I think that's the thing, too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I want to just really take a moment to remind people that we exist on a spectrum. You know there's a real temptation out there to to label and diagnose and self diagnose. And, you know, go to Dr. Tiktok. And all of this, and the reality is you don't have to have a diagnosis to struggle or benefit from some of these.

Dr. David Nathan: Percent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know, it isn't a switch. It isn't an on or off thing. So if you're hearing something today, and you think, Gosh, that's really me. Maybe I have ADHD, or maybe you exist on a spectrum. And this is a strategy that really works for you. So just.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I just want to point out real briefly here for those of you not watching this on on Youtube, that when when Dr. MacBride mentioned Dr. Tiktok, Dr. Nathan Nathan provided an eye roll that would make a teenager proud

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like I.

Dr. David Nathan: It's so bad it's so bad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I was super impressed by that. No, there's so much.

Dr. David Nathan: There's a lot of lot of discussions that I've had. There's so much garbage on Tiktok. It's unbelievable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This would be the time for for Gayle and I to plug the fact that we're both on Tiktok. I'm at Dr. Dancastle.

Dr. David Nathan: Not those guys.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: At Dr. G. MacBride. We're going to assume that those that the 2 of us are providing only quality information. And in reality, you know we don't know what we don't know. Necessarily the credentials of people on Tiktok, and some are being just just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm not against.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Tiktok, for finding information and developing community. What I am against is using that as an opportunity to then to go into your doctor's office and say, I know I have this thing. I saw it on Tiktok.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Single.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, or identifying and labeling yourself because you've seen it in a non credible environment. Right? This may be a starting place for your research. It helps. People ask sometimes really good questions, but it's not. It's not an ending place. It's not a place where you then self diagnose, or, you know, insist to your doctor that you know you have this disorder because.

Dr. David Nathan: True story. This came up recently, and I had a client college educated twenties who came to me because they had ADHD, and they're trying to learn some ADHD skills. I will also say, speaking of the spectrum, there's so many things I do to organize my day that have everything to do with like? Oh, that's a really good idea, because I learned about in a training or a book, or something like that related to ADHD. So I mean these things, help everybody. There's all kinds of really useful skills that people can learn and that I benefit

Dr. David Nathan: fit from

Dr. David Nathan: But truth, I do go back to this, this person came in twenties, and suddenly they were just having a really hard time. This is like a 3rd or 4th person. 3rd or 4th time I saw them.

Dr. David Nathan: and I said, Do you want to talk to your doctor about your medication? Because maybe that's not going so well for you? It sounds like things have really taken a turn in the past week or 2. And this person said, Oh, I'm not taking adh medication anymore. I'm like, oh, okay, what caused that to happen? He's like, well, none of us are. And I'm like, Okay, he's like, because, you know, it's all over. It's all over Tiktok. If you take adh medication, you get autism.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hmm.

Dr. David Nathan: And I mean, this is a college educated person, and so I guess part of it is, people go to Tiktok, and people want to know what's going on, but my concern and my real deep frustration. And it's not just on Tiktok. There are other people do it in other places, too. People kind of present themselves as experts, and they're doing it for clicks. They're doing it for engagement. They're doing it for money. They're doing it for to kind of build up their own benefit. And they're saying stuff that's

Dr. David Nathan: profoundly untrue and just unhelpful. I think people already have enough difficulties in their lives without someone kind of taking advantage of their of a platform to give misinformation to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Capability.

Dr. David Nathan: Yeah, for for their own kind of personal betterment. I think that's a pretty scummy thing to do. So if you don't know what you're talking about it. If you don't know what you're talking about, you know just I don't know that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And then.

Dr. David Nathan: Phone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I like, I think, unfortunately. And we could do a whole episode on this. But unfortunately, the the we're not necessarily looking at? Is this a credible source of information.

Dr. David Nathan: 100%.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And all of the information we're getting, we're getting so information from so many sources, and at each source we should be asking ourselves, like, what is the credibility behind this source? How much has been vetted and what we're seeing a lot of is people viewing all sources as having equal quality, regardless of whether it's a, you know, double blind peer reviewed research literature article, or some guy who had this problem on Tiktok or

Dr. Daniel Kessler: read other social media platforms. And and that's really problematic. Well, we should. There's more on that. Probably.

Dr. David Nathan: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Getting back to the topic. Here, though. Is he the asshole for making her

Dr. Daniel Kessler: take her for for telling her she has to take her. ADHD Meds? That was his question.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I guess I would want to hear that actual conversation right? Did he say you have to, or did he really? Is that conversation more loving.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Then maybe he even presented like, maybe he feels this way, but maybe said like, Hey, you know, you really look like you're not doing well. I think you did better on ADHD medications. I think that's different than you're not lifing. You're not adulting here. You need to take this medicine, which is maybe more demanding than than I would like to see this young young person be in a relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So I think I would go with a soft. I have some real concerns about how he's likely communicating his probably good intent, and it's being executed poorly. I don't know that I have enough to say asshole or even sucks. I suspect it's somewhere in a

Dr. Gayle MacBride: problematic territory, though David.

Dr. David Nathan: There's part of me I love that answer. I feel it's such a such a loving, compassionate, empathetic psychologist answer. And I think in this in this world of of like hot takes and and you know, owning people online and and all that. I think I really like that. And I think that's that's that's the healthy answer, you know, because I think just saying like, this person is the asshole is

Dr. David Nathan: it's it's it's not.

Dr. David Nathan: It's really, viscerally satisfying right to smash someone and being sanctimonious. It's really it's really enjoyable to do that. But I think we just need less of that right now we need to tone it down, and I think your point about probably means well, I'd like, you know, I don't know, but I think it's entirely possible this person means well, maybe they grew up in a home where, like doing this hygiene stuff was really important, you know, and and they're, you know, they're 22, was it? 22 or 23? They're 22. And

Dr. David Nathan: they've been in the relationship for 3 years. That's so young. That's so young. And they're still learning how the world works. And this is what has been role modeled to them by adults. And they're thinking, this is the appropriate thing for adults. And I mean, I don't know. This is pure speculation, but I think there's a lot of ways that this really could be meant as a loving thing.

Dr. David Nathan: And I think, especially with guys so often, I think there's so many times that guys do something. And it's coming from a what they think is a loving, supportive way, and they get slammed so hard. And they

Dr. David Nathan: they're just in shock. And I think it does so much damage to guys and women, too. You know, I just, I work with a lot of guys who have these experiences. So I hear about it all the time. So yeah, I really really like that answer, I really want to kind of elevate that answer. I really like that. We don't know. We don't know, and saying saying, the person is an asshole, I think, is too easy and too harmful, and I want to avoid that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I really like that point. I think that without being in the room and hearing the context of it, the clickbaity way, the question was worded. Yeah, probably I would think, like you crossed a line.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but we don't know. We don't know what was said. What was there. And it sounds like we're willing to give him a little bit of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like what actually happened

Dr. Daniel Kessler: before we determine that he and we don't know, and we won't know what actually happened, and unless Michael has greater insight for us, I do want to underscore. I'm gonna go way back to the beginning of this before you throw this to Michael?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You said something, David, I thought, was really interesting. We've talked about this like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I can't necessarily tell you what you need to do. But I can tell you what I'm okay with being in a relationship.

Dr. David Nathan: Right, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Can't tell my partner you're not allowed to smoke. You can't smoke cigarettes, but I can tell a partner I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who smokes

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like that's okay for me to make that determination for myself that I don't want to be in a loving, caring relationship with with it with a smoker discrimination, whatever. Not I. Just that's a choice for me, but I can't tell you not to smoke, and that's a fine, and I and I like what you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Inbound kind of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Alluded to that earlier on like, you can't tell her she has to do this. But you he does. He can say like this is not a relationship. I want to be a part of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and that they're talking. But now you're talking about self rather than talking about the other person needs to do.

Dr. David Nathan: Yeah, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, I jumped in before both of you, because I also was a little bit concerned. As the men in this conversation there is a hesitancy to tell the woman in this scenario what to do, and so I wanted to get in there as the woman, and be able to say, like, I think there is a kind and loving place for this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and I think we have an awareness that men sometimes can overstep and be really pushy and come off badly, even though they have loving intent. So I sort of intentionally kind of inserted my opinion a little bit quicker, because I wanted to. Not just just get on this like, but men can't tell women what to do. That's true, and women can't tell men what to do with their bodies, I should say, and be really clear on what substances you take or what you do, and those kinds of things. And and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I wanted to to remind us in this conversation that you know this is a relationship and kind of like what you were saying, Dan, is, it is okay to say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hey, I'm concerned, and I can't be in a relationship with someone whose ADHD is not in better control, or they are hyper focused on reading and neglecting hygiene and those kinds of things like you can say that, and I think that that is, that is a fair thing without demanding somebody. Do something different with their body. But you you do have a decision point in here. So anyway.

Michael MacBride: Well, you guys have such wonderful answers. And you know the the Internet is not nearly as kind. And there were

Michael MacBride: bye.

Dr. David Nathan: What it's really.

Michael MacBride: I mean, sometimes they get nuanced responses. But what surprised me about this one, and and really one of the reasons that I selected it was.

Michael MacBride: the responses were not what I expected. The I mean, there were most of the responses actually were. You're not the asshole. Which kind of surprised me because it felt like a pushy

Michael MacBride: you know, demanding kind of stance. And what was surprising, though, is most of those people who weighed in saying, You're not the asshole. Were people with ADHD who said.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's see.

Michael MacBride: If that were me, I would want to know that like you need to tell me that shit's going off the rails because I don't have a good double check otherwise. And then the people who said, You're the asshole

Michael MacBride: looked at the wording. You know where? He said, like, we agreed. They're like, yeah, yeah, this is already a problem. And we haven't even really got to like the meat of your conversation, which Dan, you jumped in right away, and David as well, both of you were like, Whoa! This doesn't sound great like, why is this guy part of this conversation, this decision, or whatever? And so the you're the asshole. People really weighed in on that and the language and just kind of the

Michael MacBride: controlling nature potentially. And you're right. We we don't know what that conversation actually looked like. Unfortunately, the OP. Didn't really come back and give us, you know, an objective perspective of what exactly, he said. We just have the post. And that was really it. No clarification. Later on.

Michael MacBride: the one kind of interesting side conversation which I was really glad to hear you guys bring up? Which was essentially, how hard do you push somebody? And how hard do you make that concern known? And as the Internet does, it often goes down unexpected little pathways, and a bunch of people jumped in talking about being members of the Sandwich generation.

Michael MacBride: you know, and having children and elderly parents who have dementia and don't want to take their medication or whatever. And that's not the conversation that this post was about at all. But that idea of.

Michael MacBride: Where does that loving, supportive person stand in relationship to medication and medical concerns? So I don't know if you have anything else to say about any of those but those. Those were kind of the main things.

Dr. David Nathan: It's just to hear that answer about, you know, people with ADHD saying, step in. If it was just other people just saying, Yeah, totally. It's appropriate. If you do that like that, I kind of wins them like, Oh, my gosh, really. But yeah, I think that again, context makes a lot of difference. And I think that makes a lot. And I think if you have that relationship, you know, with someone and say, like, Hey, give me a heads up. If things are kind of, you know, getting flaky, I think that totally makes sense. I think there's also another issue in our culture with men

Dr. David Nathan: and men are really struggling with this. I mean, society in general is, but I think men in particular was like, you're the one who, if you're if you're a real man, you know the stuff that you want, you know that happens, and then you make it happen. And you know, if you can't make it happen, you know, if people aren't doing what you say, you know you're a wuss and a bunch of other, you know

Dr. David Nathan: derogatory things, and if there's tremendous pressure for for guys to kind of prove that their their man card is up to date and it has expired. They haven't. They haven't lost their man privileges. And I feel like this is it's 1 of these, you know.

Dr. David Nathan: kind of issues that we have with with gender and expectations and and people. And that's that's rough. So I mean, I think that's a whole other dimension to, you know, there's something going on wrong. And I noticed that it's bothering me. What's the best way to deal with it. And I think there's some really unhealthy ideas out there for for young men about. This is how you're supposed to deal with something that's bothering you, and I think that can make the problems worse if you follow a lot of the advice that's out there.

Dr. David Nathan: So I appreciate the person's asking about it. I think you know, I'm glad someone's asking. I'm really glad that someone's asking. They're putting themselves out there. Yeah. So that's that's a good thing.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, well, thank all 3. Thank you. All 3 of you. Thanks, all 3 of you. Thanks, all 3 of you. I'll go with that for another ribbing debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, that's.

Dr. David Nathan: Much.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's me. Sorry, guys. I was just like really enjoying just thinking about that conversation that we had, and and got kind of lost in my own head, because that was that was really helpful. And and I really appreciate your some, your unique perspectives. Thanks for being on with us.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you. So, yeah.

Dr. David Nathan: For having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Really happy to have you here and then, and I learned one or 2 things today as well, and I appreciate that not too old to learn and be, and be reminded of of a few things. So thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. David Nathan: Absolutely. It was a great conversation. Thank you so much for having me.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, please follow and share veritas views of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation about I don't know whatever happens beyond their mind today.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's the bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, all right. We've been fortunate to have Dr. David Nathan with us today, and we love to have these bonus conversations. We started our season one a lot of times with something quirky in each other's office, and that would tell maybe an interesting story. David, I'm curious. Is there something in your office that tells an interesting story about you, or, you know, gives you a memory that you'd like to share with us. I'm going to let you pick the object.

Dr. David Nathan: Okay? Well, I feel really lucky. I have this medallion here. It's from Japan, and it is actually from a temple in Kyoto had the opportunity, when I was 22 years old, to go to Japan for 2 weeks. And this is a couple of years after the movie, the matrix came out, and there's a sequence in the matrix where Neo asks Morpheus if the oracle knows everything, and Morpheus kind of smiles to himself, and says she would say that she knows enough.

Dr. David Nathan: And and I was like, that's an interesting quote, and it and and this and this, this little kind of amulet this is from a fountain in Kyoto and and in Japanese. It says, a person who is wise knows that they know enough.

Dr. David Nathan: So there's kind of this. Where does that come from? And you know I always kind of thought. That's an interesting like. I don't know that reference. I never googled it. But that it comes. It comes from this particular, this particular temple and this particular fountain, this kind of particular idea. And I always I always. There's so much information out there, and I think there's a lot just to

Dr. David Nathan: having self confidence and and people, you know, things have been difficult. I think if there's a 1 aspect of a silver lining to Covid as we got through it. You know, if you're here right now, we got through Covid, there's going to be difficult things that happen in the future, difficult things going on right now. We've been through difficult things. We can get through this, too, and and kind of having faith that you know we don't know exactly what's going to happen. But we will make decisions, and we'll make the best decisions that we can. Given what we know and what we expect, and I think that

Dr. David Nathan: the best thing we could do is just put one foot in front of the other and have faith in ourselves and keep going. And you know, knowing that we know enough, we might wish that we knew more, but just have faith that you know enough and keep on going. I think that's a real, healing.

Dr. David Nathan: helpful way of of being in the world. So this is something that I have. And when I'm here working from home. It's it's always right. Next to my computer.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Awesome. Well, thank you very much. That's a really cool story.

Dr. David Nathan: You bet!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thanks, for sharing.

Dr. David Nathan: Absolutely.

Michael MacBride: Yeah. Thanks everyone for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In this episode, Dr. Gayle MacBride and Dr. Daniel Kessler both mentioned the impact of The Bay of Pigs on JFK, and how he changed his thought-making process after. Here is a great article about it, and several books that also discuss that topic:

• • • Morten T. Hansen's "How John F. Kennedy Changed Decision Making for Us All" (2013) Harvard Business Review: https://hbr.org/2013/11/how-john-f-kennedy-changed-decision-making

    • Morten Hansen's Collaboration: How Leaders Avoid the Traps, Build Common Ground, and Reap Big Results (2009): https://amzn.to/4hQe3no

    • Robert F. Kennedy's Thirteen Days: A Memoir of the Cuban Missile Crisis (1999) 

• A great book about Abraham Lincoln's cabinet and how he intentionally built it with people who disagreed with him:

  • • Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln (2006) 

About the way the vice presidency used to be awarded and what its roles/responsibility were:

• Lindsay M. Chervinsky's Making the Presidency: John Adams and the Precedents That Forged the Republic (2024)

• Jody C Baumgartner and Thomas F. Crumblin's The American Vice Presidency: From the Shadow to the Spotlight (2015)

• Jules Witcover's The American Vice Presidency: From Irrelevance to Power (2014)

• James Roger Sharp's The Deadlocked Election of 1800: Jefferson, Burr, and the Union in the Balance (2010)

• John Ferling's Adams vs. Jefferson: The Tumultuous Election of 1800 (2005)

And, our bonus conversation references our "blueberries" episode, (Season 2, Episode 4). Here are links to those if you want to listen:

• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5pl6kdg28aKxHIatfphh76?si=e6bf5178a4374187

• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSFe1fq0nu8

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks

Michael MacBride: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi! I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride, and joining me today is the person I have managed to corrupt into both validating and exacerbating my worst psychological theories. Welcome Dr. Daniel Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Validating your worst psychological theory.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Maybe my best. We've talked about this idea of drift together, you know. Sometimes when you practice in a really similar way, and you theoretically share a lot of overlap. There are times where we've sat back and gone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Let's challenge ourselves. And and that is something I really, truly on our relationship.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I want to jump, jump in on this because this is a really interesting

Dr. Daniel Kessler: concept of the shift, the risky shift, or the or the drift.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I think it's worth just I'm just going to mention this like a Psa and and correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. MacBride, because I'm pulling from information gleaned from a sociology class taken in the mid 1980s.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's okay. I'm being 12. Right now. I'm going. Have PSA, the public service announcement.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, not prostate specific antigen.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so more appropriate to my age. But like, when we get when you get groups of people together.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: especially like-minded groups, they shift to the more extreme. And this sociological phenomenon is really fascinating. In the modern era where we have aggregated.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: people like it used to be. If you wanted to find like-minded people, you had to go somewhere and find them. Now we've got tens of thousands of hundreds of millions of people aggregated in the same space, all having strong opinions. And we're seeing these shifts to the extreme. And I really believe that the shift to the extreme. The polarization we're seeing is related to that. Hey? You just wandered into a political podcast unintentionally.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's true, it's true, and this is why Kennedy, after the Bay of Pigs, insisted on having people in the room that disagreed with him.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Exactly. I mean, I love that story about about the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Have disagreement in order to keep yourself from drifting to a really dangerous place, making really dangerous decisions. Or

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and you took you information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wow! We glean the same information from totally different sociology classes taken thousands of miles apart. That's exactly right. If you want to make a good decision, and I'm going to underscore this. What you just said. If you want to make a good decision. By the way, Gayle mentioned the Bay of pigs, fiasco. And what happened as a result of that, Michael? I'm sure we'll put a link in the show notes to something about that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But what was done. Post. That was, create a situation where you intentionally bring someone who disagrees with you into the room. And anytime you're making a major decision about something that has huge import. We should be bringing opposing views in as much as we can to argue with us, because that's how you make the best decisions not going to make any political comment beyond that right now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And we do.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Might be picking up what I'm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Here on the show with each other. There are some times where you and I will double as advocate, because we know. No, we've worked together for almost a dozen years now dozen years, probably dozen years. We know with pretty good certainty what opinion or line the other will take. Sometimes we ask the question just because we want the other to say it. But we kind of know what you know. It's a relatively educated guess.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but there are times where you and I will push each other, because we know this is a phenomenon, and we want to make sure that we're examining it from all sides. Possible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So excellent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Anyway, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So with all of that out of the way, Michael.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yep.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This this week's scenario.

Michael MacBride: Well, I'll add 2 more really quick, I mean Lincoln and his team of rivals, like he intentionally created a cabinet of people who disagreed with him, and then, historically, I mean the Vice President used to be given to the second vote getter, so it often meant you had a John Adams and a Thomas Jefferson, who were direct rivals of each other, running the country, which is always kind of interesting. The more you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There'll be links in the show notes.

Michael MacBride: For any of the Newbies who are like, what? What is this? This is really not typically that kind of podcast although there are all kinds of interesting opinions shared. So really, what's happened here is we have 2 ex. We have 2 experts, I think of them as experts from Veritas Psychology Partners. And what I've done is I've gone out and I have found a scenario online where somebody has shared a post and said, Hey, I lived through this. Who's the asshole here?

Michael MacBride: And that's what we're going to hope to determine. I've tried to de-identify the posts that are a little more discreet, and

Michael MacBride: as always, stick around through the credits. Because today we're going to tackle one of our mailbag questions. Somebody wrote us, and they.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Call back!

Michael MacBride: Actually, they had a.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: They had him.

Michael MacBride: Follow up comment about one of our recent podcasts, the blueberry one. So anyway, we'll get to that

Michael MacBride: but for now neither Dan nor Gayle have read this. I haven't shared with them, anyway. I always like to see what they do with it cold, anyway. So

Michael MacBride: and this is one that I thoroughly enjoyed. I mean, I always enjoy the topics that I come up with for you. But

Michael MacBride: every once in a while the Internet just has like this little gem of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Such a.

Michael MacBride: A weird scenario that I just love.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You spotlight us. So people can't see you in the video. I just want to tell our listening and Youtube audience how amused it is really fun. As Michael's wife. I get to see him just chuckle and amusement with himself or an idea, and he is just. He's just kind of getting to share this with us today. Michael, please.

Michael MacBride: Okay, so the the prompt for this is, Am I the asshole for? And this is in air? Well, it's in actual quotes. But I'm air quoting, vandalizing my neighbor's dog's winter coat.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We're going to need more.

Michael MacBride: Yeah. So here is the here's the scenario.

Michael MacBride: the general. The OP. Is 28 male, and he has a neighbor who is 87 year old female.

Michael MacBride: They live, and he says we live in a rural area, with a shaded, wooded back road connecting our driveways to the main road. It stays dark until almost 8 am. In the winter, making it making visibility difficult.

Michael MacBride: My neighbor is nearly blind, and has a friendly black lab that helps her navigate. The problem is that the dog, dressed in a black coat for warmth in the winter, roams freely on the shared roads in the morning, making him almost impossible to see between me and the other neighbors. We've almost hit him over 8 times in the last 2 months.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Michael MacBride: I talked to my neighbor about adding bells or a new reflective coat, but she refused, saying, the bells are too noisy and difficult for her to handle, and she was attached to this particular coat. After almost hitting the dog with my truck again, I took matters into my own hands, and spray, painted his coat with reflective paint.

Michael MacBride: Now he's much easier to spot, and my neighbors agree. It's safer. My neighbor didn't notice for a few weeks until her stepnephew pointed it out. And now she's furious, accusing me of vandalism and talking about lawsuits. I admit I could have used reflective tape or bought a new coat, but I generally thought I was helping. Am I the asshole here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wow!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So, my!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But when you said vandalizing my dog, my dog's coat, I thought they were like like he showed him where the clippers, and like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I did, too. Right. No! Oh, my goodness gracious! We've.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And then we're talking about.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, the coat, the little jacket the doggie wears.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I just can we go on a side here? I'm not a dog owner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, what's with the coat on the dog thing? Do they need them? Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: especially, they get cold. They get cold like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This is a lab.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, I don't understand the code.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Happy to come.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Live, well, maybe live.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wait. Is it a lab coat.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Of course.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay. I think you broke me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Just curious. If it's a it's a it's a but I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: White coat, then.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I just.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Your problem.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I just don't. I? Just yeah, exactly. I don't. I

Dr. Daniel Kessler: always been troubled by coats on dogs. I always look at that and go that just, and if you're if you're a listener and you, you want to tell me I'm an asshole for saying that, please do. But like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean, I've got cats, and I mean fine, and but I all right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know whether or not you put a coat on your dog. I think

Dr. Gayle MacBride: you, as a dog owner, have determined that your canine friend is cold and needs some additional layering. Okay, fine, you know, especially out in these colder climates. And we've gone through a really recent polar vortex of just shitty coldness. So like, I'm not. Gonna I'm not gonna hate on anybody wants to put a coat on their lab if they want the lab to have some outside time during a really cold snap like fine.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I really am struggling here because the OP. I'm going to get back to the scenario has talked to the neighbor, and I do find it difficult as a citizen when you say to someone, Hey, I see something happening with your dog that doesn't seem safe. I'm actually genuinely concerned about your pet's well-being, and you get blown off. I've actually had this happen.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and I sit back and I scratch my head like, where is our responsibility to to this dog? You know, just being kind of kind, good citizens.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And where is it? The rights of of another person I mean here, or of the dog owner here, you know, you potentially have a neighbor who could inadvertently harm the dog, and then what kind of damage does it do to the person who is responsible for that harm, but only because they couldn't see the dog like there's some there's some level of. Perhaps we're even protecting the neighbors from having

Dr. Gayle MacBride: a vehicle dog accident and the psychological harm that it can do to someone. When you, when you hit an animal with your vehicle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It gives them the right to damage the coat like. I'm just thinking more broadly about this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean, this is, this is a tough one, because on on one hand, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: if someone says to me, I can't see your dog, and I almost hit your dog, and, like 3 other people, almost hit your dog like I'd be like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: again. I'm not a dog owner, but still I'd be like like, I. Still, I like you can't put a coat on a cat, because they would, you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But like I would.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Look you are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I need. Exactly. What do I? Said? Cab like fuck? Are you doing?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I would.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What do I need to do to make my dog more visible? How can I do like? I would be going out of my way to do everything I could to make that to make that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: doggy coat more visible because it would terrify me to have my my pet get hit by a car that would just like freak me out. I would absolutely.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: A quick, reflective color. Leave the coating.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, just out of end.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Rest of the color cause.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And and at the same time, like you don't get to spray, paint someone else's shit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Especially if she's attached this coat, like I have a real problem with this. This lady has said, Hey, for whatever reason this coat that my dog wears is special to me, and I want my dog like maybe it was hand crocheted by, said grandson, or step nephew, or whatever it was older, like it has special meaning. You don't get to go and to face that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not your decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I I you know, without without apologies for running or just rendering decision too quickly, like everyone, seems like kind of an asshole here, except for the minor character, we only put

Dr. Daniel Kessler: the deck characters well, the dog and the nephew

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like they're obviously cool people, right? I mean cool entities.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Probably probably I just find myself scratching my head a little bit. So then, this this like whatever step nephew, grand nephew, or whatever comes in and says, Hey, did you know? And she goes? Nope, I didn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: She wouldn't have noticed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So whatever the OP. Has done, trump is relic.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, no stick with me here. The whatever the OP. Did also was relatively unobtrusive. It's not like it's a big yellow orange streak on this coat where the the lab walks in right, because that bright color on a black coat would be noticeable. She didn't notice. So there's something here that is reflective but not obvious unless it's unless you're hitting it, maybe with with headlights or something like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is Michael was. I thought the I thought that was there a visual impairment here on the dog owner.

Michael MacBride: Yeah. The dog owner is nearly blind.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Michael MacBride: Is, what.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? Okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: yeah. But still I would think nearly blind is not totally legally blind, which you know, there's gradations here. And again, if you put a bright color on a black coat, you're gonna notice it. So I do wonder how blind this person is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, yeah, I mean, I'm just, and it doesn't

Dr. Gayle MacBride: give them the right. It's a big old in between those 2 things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I mean, everyone's shitty here. I feel like like again, if you're gonna hit. My, if you might hit my dog with your car. I'm gonna want to do whatever I can at the same time, like spray paint is a little extreme.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Agreed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like. I mean, they make reflector tape, and you can.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, and, he said maybe I should have done something less than.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Tape might have been the way to go.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, massage the fact pattern? Does he have the right to attach reflective tape to? Said.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean still still no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So like it doesn't matter. It's less invasive, does it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I, this is, this is a hard one, because, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I get it like, I would be wanting to do what this guy did.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Or gal. I would want to do that. I'd be like, oh, if I could just like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but you just throw spray paint on there, you know, at the same time, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you don't get to do that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Is there another way to handle it?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Is there another way to handle it? You know we often say like, though it could be solved by a conversation, and the OP. Had the conversation, and it went nowhere. Then what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Your office down and says, Oh, my gosh! I'm so distressed I'm so I'm so upset about this. I've tried to handle it. What do I do, Dr. Kessler? Help me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I don't know. I honestly don't know on this one, because it's because they've done exactly we want them to do, which is to have that polite, respectful

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, Hey, I get where you're coming from. I just

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know what the answer is, because I don't want to be hitting the dog. I guess if I'm

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean, obviously, if I'm if I'm the neighbor, I'm putting the reflector I shit on my dog, like you know, in a heartbeat like you know. What? What do you? You know I

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but if I'm if I'm the neighbor, I'm probably just driving scared in my neighborhood.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't think there's a there's not a good answer, and hope to hell that I never hit their dog, because that would be devastating to the other person, but also to me. I don't want to like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: hit someone's dog with my car.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, Michael, you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know what is what.

Michael MacBride: I found an answer to a question you asked earlier, which is, do dogs need coats in the

Michael MacBride: which is, I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Bring you back to the important point here.

Michael MacBride: It depends, and and I'll bring it back to the conversation. You're just having.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Please, so.

Michael MacBride: Labrador retrievers originated in Newfoundland, Canada, and they were bred for their ability to retrieve things out of icy waters, and so their coat is layered, and it actually is kind of oily and repels water so like it is intentionally built for cold weather. Now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This dog doesn't need a coat.

Michael MacBride: Well, we don't know how many, how many generations removed it is from the original breed, and if it's purebred, or whatever. But anyway, I got.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's in the middle of, but for those, if it doesn't.

Michael MacBride: Need it. I've got.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We're winter here. It's Minnesota. We're in winter. I got a neighbor who's got 3 huskies.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: These things have been outside every day all day long, living their very best lives. They're just chilling out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: With a sign, saying, Do not call animal control, they will not come in. This is not our fault.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It is like 0 outside Fahrenheit, and these dogs are like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm living my life. This is great for me, man, and if the lab is, if I didn't know that about labs because I'm not again. I'm not a dog guy, but I think the solution here is, take the coat off the dog. He doesn't need one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's not. But wait now. The dog's outside, and it has black fur.

Michael MacBride: That's what I was. Gonna say, now, massage the fact pattern. There's no coat, but the dog is just dark, and you can't see it. So what do you recommend? Like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: anyway. Thank you for answering the mail the question before, like with. But what did what did the Internet say about the is everyone shitty like, I think.

Michael MacBride: It's it's a mix of things most people came down on the side of. You're not the asshole, but the everybody sucks. Here was a strong contingent as well. And you know, so the not the asshole comments. Basically, said the owner, is valuing a coat over the life of her dog. What if someone unfamiliar with the road came through? The only reason it hasn't been hit is because you and the neighbors have been so careful, you know she should be thanking you, not criticizing you so like. That's fair.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Care.

Michael MacBride: That's the not the asshole kind of comment. The everybody sucks here is technically the neighbor has the right to put her dog in danger if she chooses, but, OP. Your invention was still justifiable. Given the circumstance, however, you addressed it with the neighbor, and she said, No, you both suck here.

Michael MacBride: so like those are.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That, OP said to the neighbor, Hey, can I spray? Paint the coat the dog's wearing like? I don't think it was a direct ask

Dr. Gayle MacBride: right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It probably was a software conversation that was a little bit more tiptoe around right? Hey? We don't see your dog. Is there something you'd be willing to do. Would you put some bells on it so we can hear it, which, by the way, I don't know that the bells would help if you have your windows up and it's in the middle of fucking winter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: it's gonna help. The bells are like a visual reflective something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I can make a damn bit of difference here in Minnesota in the wintertime. Not one bit of difference in a Minnesota winter. Those bells so, and.

Michael MacBride: And I'll add, most of the not the asshole. People really, you know, were very sympathetic to the dog, and they said, No, you did the right thing. You saved this dog's life. Blah blah! And maybe not, because now the neighbor's mad and she's gonna take the coat off, or who knows but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Michael MacBride: M, yeah, those those are the main kind of things you guys really touched on most of it. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right. Good. Well, so so we sort of bringing. I do get the point that people are making that maybe not the asshole. If it's saving the dog's life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: it still just really it really troubles me

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so. I'm still struggling with that.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, well, thank you both for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just black labs or white labs.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Felt like an ethical dumpster fire. Thanks for sticking with us through the whole thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not black labs or white labs.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, my gosh! Or labs and lab coats.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, well, if it was lab code, it definitely would be more reflective. So please

Michael MacBride: follow and share Veritas Views, any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and, as always, stick around through the credits for the bonus conversation. This time it's going to be one of our mailbag topics. Somebody wrote in about the blueberry episode, so hang with us. See you on the other side of the credits.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Michael MacBride: So we've talked about it a number of times. Obviously we have the mailbag and mailbag

Michael MacBride: so exciting. I love. When people write into us, you know. Sometimes they're writing in new questions. Sometimes it's a follow up about something that we had

Michael MacBride: got wrong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That can't be.

Michael MacBride: So this is what our mailbag person said. They said, listen to the blueberry. We listened to the blueberries. Podcast. I don't have an issue of most of what you said. But I do wonder what you do when the preferred fruit is too expensive. We live in a rural area, and don't get the variety of fresh fruit that some people do. My 9 year old daughter loves pineapple, but we don't always get that I know we could give her canned fruit.

Michael MacBride: But I don't like all the syrup, and, like you said, I want her to see it in the true form, not hidden in a can, or frozen and mixed into a smoothie. I want her to experience other fruit, but I also don't want the fight at the same time. Sometimes we really just can't find fresh pineapple or afford it. Do you have any thoughts about what to do with this? Because my wife and I disagree about how to handle it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, I really appreciate this. This is, this is great.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and I also don't want to necessarily be dispensing parenting advice directly to an individual. So let's talk more broadly about how do you handle when a particular item of food is not available, and your child has a preference for something that just isn't available in your area. What do you do, Dan? How do you? How do you help parents with this kind of thing?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think we need to be honest with our kids that sometimes the answer is no

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like. I would love to be able to provide you with this, but I can't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: or I'm choosing, or I could. But I'm choosing not to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, because this ingredient is expensive or not available or available, but super expensive at this time of year. I you know I don't think it harms our kids to hear a no from their parents. I do like the parenting like. No, and let me explain why? The no, sometimes the no is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This is just not a value. I mean, this is what an opportunity to teach kids about like the cost of these blueberries is the same as the cost of this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, we sometimes have this conversation like if we like, if we eat this, if we eat out at this restaurant once a week, and it costs this many dollars over the course of a year. What else could we use that? Many dollars for? And those are opportunities for teaching? I think this is a teachable moment for the kid like I would love to give you this, and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This would. This is, this is either too expensive or not not available. And let's talk about what other options there are when the item you want is too expensive, unavailable, etc. We can turn all this into a teaching moment. What are your.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I agree? Yeah, no. I like that a lot. I like the fact that you know we are reminded that we can tell our children. No, you know I'd love to. But this is this is not with either within our budget or it's not available. What we do have available is, you know, X or Y,

Dr. Gayle MacBride: go ahead and have you choose one of those of those which would you prefer that kind of thing? And I think it's also okay to say, you know, this is this is not something that's available all the time. And so occasionally we may make this choice as a treat or Hey, we're traveling. And this has become available. Let's really lean into. And so you show the child that you recognize their preference and the thing that they really love.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And with these other circumstances we're not either able to get it or able to afford it. So when when it does become available, we can make that as a priority preference.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Or we choose not to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like sometimes. Yeah, we could afford it. And we're choosing not to, because it's not what we're what we're valuing right now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that's okay, too.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right right like, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like, like, we could just say, Yeah, we could afford that, and no.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: We're gonna choose not to

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We choose not to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, so I think there's lots of ways to handle it when that particular ingredient or choices is

Dr. Gayle MacBride: less available or very expensive. And and you are going to go ahead and say, no, that's it. Just because the child wants it doesn't mean they necessarily get it. It does smack of an earlier episode that we had, and I and I'm not going to be able to maybe remember all the details now. But there was. Maybe we'll help have Michael dig into our archives a little bit and link it in the show notes, because there are. There are times where we've said.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Kind of similar on this show, which is just because the child I think it was wanted to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Gluten free donut gluten free donut.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, it wasn't the gluten-free donut. It was the. I think it was the child who was making a

Dr. Gayle MacBride: choice was, I think it was Vegan choice, and and we were kind of concerned about the financial burden on the family. And the parent was saying, Am I the asshole for saying basically. No, I'm not. Gonna I can't afford to. I can't afford to buy the ingredients this way or something like that. But we'll we'll put the episode in the show notes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: because I think there's something similar here just because the child says that they want it. Are we obligated to to provide the food exactly the way they want it, and and you and I came down and said, No, there, there are some opportunities here for for conversation always, which you know, I know this is the Am. I the asshole? Podcast but maybe it should be did. I have the conversation podcast.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's accurate. That is accurate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, thank you, Michael.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, thanks for thanks for both those. I'll link both of those episodes. Because, Dan, you're right. The Gluten Free Donut one is also kind of a child entitlement kind of conversation which kind of it gets to that saying, no to children. Sometimes you guys both talked about that there as well, but thanks everyone for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

The bonus conversation in this episode references the Super Bowl episode (Season 1, Episode 25). Here are links to that episode:

• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5sT2AKxvxtxMMsaGz7SJIN?si=fd333da1f750453a

• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc4bhLKOJVs

Also, Dan and Gayle mention two other episodes in this one. So here are links to those:

• Gluten-free donut (Season 1, Episode 26):

  • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6njS70wM15VHpdQPX7YvKd?si=56390ea391da4c42

  • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C82avy_2Ghk

• Vegan daughter (Season 1, Episode 15)

  • Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6sTAPVHg0pCY2G5xPQDxyr?si=3face80569d14cc9

  • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NeWWfDIM3Q

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks

Michael MacBride: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride, and I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm Dr. Gale MacBride, and as we dig into the murky waters of Am I the asshole or not? I am joined by my business partner, Dr. Daniel Kessler, who is never afraid to tell me I'm the asshole.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Dan, it's true you are so good at calling me out. I love it. That's why you're my partner in this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: The good news is that that is a fairly mutual thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, absolutely!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You're less likely to say, Dan, you're an asshole. You're more likely to say I don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know if that worked for you, Dan, like I'm.

Michael MacBride: Might need to soften that approach.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, it's more of a Minnesota approach, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like, you know, most guys wouldn't do that like, I mean, if you think it's a good idea to go ahead. And but I'm not sure that's the best choice, which is the Minnesota way of saying the fuck. Are you doing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's a true.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I would say the same is is true of you to me. When you call me out of my bullshit, you do it in a kind and professional way. I appreciate that you you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Michael, you can cut that. You can cut that last little nice city out in post. All right. That's totally unnecessary. All right. You've got some.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All of that said. Now that we're done with our introductions, Michael, do you have something interesting for us to talk about today? Not that we're not already interesting without something interesting to talk about.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, I hope so. But for any of the Newbies out there, if you wonder what the hell this is?

Michael MacBride: actually, it's a conversation between these 2 psychologists who work at Veritas Psychology Partners. And what I've done is I've gone out on the Internet, and I found a post where somebody has shared a scenario that they lived through, and asked, Who's the asshole here? And that's essentially what Dan and Gayle are going to weigh in on. So I've de-identified some of the posts to make them a little more discreet. And if you're new, stick around through the credits, we're going to address a couple of our mailbag questions. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They'll beg questions, they'll be.

Michael MacBride: Too. It's always fun to see what people ask. So sometimes it's what we got wrong. Sometimes it's a new idea sometimes who knows? We'll see what it is. So, but for now neither Gayle nor Dan have seen or read this post, they have no idea what I'm gonna throw their way. So let's go.

Michael MacBride: Today's topic is, am I the asshole for asking my wife to take down a social media post about our child's heart surgery?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay. Okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And that’s the show guys. Thanks for listening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay. Alright, we're out.

Michael MacBride: And credits.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Wow! Maybe we should hear the rest of the scenario.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, yeah, maybe we should sure. However, however.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, I tend to. When talking about kids on social media, I tend to err on the side of like, if one parent's not okay with it, that being one of those 2 yeses, one, no situations that we run into so often with couples.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: 2, 1, no, very.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, no. There, I think with relationships, there's an awful lot of 2 yeses and one nos kind of situation where both people have to be on board. If one person's not, then you then you just don't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And now I want to hear the story here, and Michael's going to give it to us, but I kind of want to in my head. Whenever talking about a conflict between a couple, I will ask myself like, Is this a 2 yeses, one, no situation, in which case one person kind of does get to dictate because you're breaking up a boundary. But, Michael, please

Dr. Daniel Kessler: share.

Michael MacBride: For sure. So this is what I got. Our teenage son was born with a congenital heart defect, and recently had their second open heart surgery. Everything went well, and while in the hospital we kept family and friends updated via text. After we got home my wife made a social media post about his surgery, saying she hoped it would be their last. The truth is, it probably won't be, though future procedures might be less invasive. When I saw the post. I asked her to adjust the wording, which she did begrudgingly.

Michael MacBride: Then I asked to talk privately. She initially refused, and made dismissive comments in front of the kids which I was trying to avoid. When we did finally talk, I told her I didn't think we should be sharing his medical history publicly. It should be our son's choice, especially now that he's a teenager, not ours. I also worried about how this could impact his future relationships, friendships, or even career.

Michael MacBride: She said it was her social media that many people were praying for our son, and that I was over analyzing everything. She kept getting questions from family and friends, and she felt like this was a way of just sharing that information. The conversation escalated, and she finally said, Fine, whatever. I'll delete it. At that point I asked her to pause so we could come to an agreement rather than enact in frustration, but she refused, deleted the

Michael MacBride: post, and ignored me for the rest of the night. So am I, the asshole for thinking our son's medical information shouldn't be shared publicly without their consent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Nope, I go back to what you said, Dan. There's there's a an issue here of

Dr. Gayle MacBride: maybe even 3 yeses, and we have a teenage person who has some

Dr. Gayle MacBride: control or say so over their image in public spaces. I really think, as parents, we need to be checking in with our kid and what they're okay with and provide them guidance. Just because our kid is okay with something doesn't mean they haven't developed a brain enough

Dr. Gayle MacBride: to actually weigh those decisions. And so, while the conversation sounds like it's spun out of control, and maybe a little quicker than we would like, I kind of agree with the poster in most part, because I don't think that social media is a place to share it now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: where they missed is that dream within the conflict conflict between the 2 of them? Right? What is it that each of them want to achieve? What is the purpose of this? And how can we find a space to get those needs met without just squashing on it and just saying social media, bad boom done.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I, I'm gonna I'm gonna stand by my snap judgment on this

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and we, you know, we've we've in the course of this, podcast even a couple weeks back, we were doing one. And I disclose something about one of my kids that I don't think he would care.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But at the same time I stopped myself afterwards, and I'm like, and I said, Hey, Michael Delete, that when you edit this, and it was edited out, and no one, no one will ever hear it, and I'm pretty sure he won't mind me saying this much

Dr. Daniel Kessler: without actually saying anything, but I think it's 1 of those things where where we need to be careful. And when I, when I did political work and my kids are in some of the politicy stuff that I did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that was a conversation my wife and I had like, is this, okay? How do we feel about this? And I know there are other people who choose not to have their kids. And and again, it falls into that one, no. 2 yeses category. If one parent's not okay with it. I think it really is. But you're right

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, what about the what if this is a teenager? Now he's got his own?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Say so over his own medical stuff, and we both. I don't work with either one of us work with younger teens, but once you get into a certain age category at least. Here in Minnesota. You've gained some rights over your record.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? Yeah, no, absolutely. And so I think it's always a good idea to to ask your kids even just making a practice at home when they're young, of even asking right? Because we want to raise

Dr. Gayle MacBride: children who are conscious and aware of how their images and their stories are going to be used and to have them practice being able to say yes or no. So we did this with our own children at home, you know. Is this. Okay.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: how about this image versus that image, you know, getting? Say so over what is there very often? I don't post my child's name, and I try to set that model for other people, so I will indicate which, child, but I won't necessarily use their full name. I pulled that from another mom in the family that I really appreciated that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And now that they're quite a bit older, honestly, we just set the audience. And we make that audience really really small. And sometimes, if I want to share something, let's say with a grandparent, I just set it to only that person. So using those.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wait. You can. You can set the only you can. You can change the audience.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh! Now you tell me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, yeah, right? And I think that's you know, it's an opportunity.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Social, media, alert.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Social media in a black and white kind of way, either yes or no. But how do we want to use it? How do we want to be thoughtful with it. That's the conversation. I would have loved the couple to be able to have.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Shit. We're back to the idea that that we should have a polite, respectful, reasonable conversation, where no one's accusing anyone of doing anything, and no one's saying, well, you're being overprotective and unrealistic and unkind. And oh, you be! You're being, you're being, you know, rude and self-disclosing, and you know these are conversations that you know. Here's that, and we're back. We're also back to that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I could see people, just, you know, well-thinking, smart, respectful people

Dr. Daniel Kessler: having respectful disagreements on this, and both thinking that they're right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I mean, Gayle, how do you work with couples when

Dr. Daniel Kessler: one has one opinion, the other has the other opinion, and neither one is wrong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right? No. And we 1st acknowledge that we start with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: This is a difference. This isn't about right or wrong, and we need to navigate this difference so that it's respectful of both of your thoughts and opinions. And let's talk about what the core issues here are, what feeds your opinion.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: How do you come to this? Is there something here that you're attached to, or you've experienced, that makes this really really important to you? What are the values here, and we start with a whole conversation about what's underneath the issue, so that we can at least have a better understanding when couples can go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, now I get it, I don't agree, but I get it. We can then a lot of times remove the resentment in terms of what we agree to do. And and I know people wince at this idea of compromise because they think they're losing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: They think they're losing something. I know you just call me an asshole, by the way, just very tough.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, I won't! I won't!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But if you can frame a

Dr. Gayle MacBride: a compromise in the sense of, I have been willing to move my thought and opinion, and I'm in a new place. With this

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm not losing anything. I've gained understanding.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I have where I where I have that immediate visceral response that those of you watching on video

Dr. Daniel Kessler: where I get the cringy response is, I don't like. I just maybe don't like the word compromise.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: because compromise implies in its usage. I'm giving up something that's important to me, and you're giving up something that's important to you in order to come to a middle ground.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think that's the error.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right right, but I think that that for me that word carries such a such a carries that meaning. I have a hard time getting beyond it, and I really like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: for for couples

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to to reframe that as a and I know you do, too, but I don't. I just it's the word. It's it's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because I still don't think the word is inaccurate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I talk about the word about. I just use the phrase win-win more often, so that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: both people are getting their needs met

Dr. Daniel Kessler: without giving like you're not giving in. You're not giving up what's important to you. You're finding a place where you both are getting a win out of it. Now that can be a challenge when you know if if it comes down to one, they don't have a place where they can find that space right? There's a lot more opportunities to find those spaces where both people can win than than folks think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I also think win-win sort of sets us up a little bit because it says I'm going to be able to retain something that maybe is mutually exclusive to what my partner wants. Like it it I think it can get us into a little bit of a fantasy land. I like the idea of. And I'm gonna hold on to compromise. And we do this well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: See, that was that Minnesota calling out an asshole thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: A little bit. So maybe I set the tone today. But I like the idea of compromise. Yes, I am going to maybe lose something. And that's okay. Because the thing I'm losing that I thought was important to me no longer, I realize, is the thing that was exactly important to me that I've really whittled it down. I've made that more of a narrow kind of

Dr. Gayle MacBride: non-negotiable, and from that point I have made a compromise. I have compromised on something that I thought I held. I needed to shed that to be able to move with my partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and so I don't think that it's a bad thing to teach people to move on those those things that they thought were initially unmovable.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I've still.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know it's a matter of difference. See? Kessler, do you get that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm still. Gonna I I have. I think that word to me just carries.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is so laden with meaning that I'm struggling to get beyond.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And and that's that's fine. And we do have these connotations of these words. But our clients come in and they're really scared of conflict

Dr. Gayle MacBride: right? No like. We have these emotionally laden words, and I think sometimes our job is to say, wait, wait, wait! You know what is the true meaning of this word. Let's stop getting so wrapped up in what we think it means.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay, and I'll go along with that. I think I do like the idea of you know where we can move people from

Dr. Daniel Kessler: from this like it has to be this way. Kind of thing like, how do we find a place of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know, I mean, mom wants to talk. Unfortunately, this is going to be a tough one, because Mom wants to talk about their kid and thinks it's okay to talk about their kid. Dad doesn't want to talk about the kid. Neither one of them bothered to ask the kid. By the way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Talk about the minor 3rd party characters in our stories here. But this 3rd party character of the kid like, if you went again, I'm fine with it. And and then again, now we have to look at. Well, you're fine with it. But how old is the person? And are they at a point in their development where they can make that judgment. I might be fine with that for my 18 year old, but I might not be as fine with that for my 13 year old.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know I fully understand.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Respectful ways to share that information where we're not blasting it out to the world again, changing your audience, maybe using a caring bridge site, or something like that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Even a caring bridge. I just

Dr. Daniel Kessler: if if dad's not okay with this, I mean and it and it

Dr. Daniel Kessler: we risk getting into gender stuff here, but the

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't care which parent it is. If one parent is not okay with sharing our children's personal information, we don't share our children's personal information. Maybe I'm being a little absolutist here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: The Kid says, let's massage the facts for a moment. So what if the kid says, yeah, no, I'm cool with it, I think. And you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Joe, out in California, you know we live. We're 2,500 miles away from her absolutely. She wants to know. I don't care, you know. But I want it to say to family and kids, okay with it, kids, 13.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oldest kid in your.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I don't know. I'm in my on the low end of

Dr. Gayle MacBride: of that age range here in Minnesota.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I I you know I honestly think it depends on the on on the kid, in the situation. I I'm not going to be an absolutist about. If the kid's okay with it, I would lean more into being okay with it myself. But this is one of those areas that it's so easy to get like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know, and social media being what it is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What's out there? Once we put it out there, it's.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's there.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is there.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Ain't going away and maybe that's fine, and maybe it's not fine.

Michael MacBride: Can can I jump in really quick.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We probably are at the place where we should talk about the comments, anyway.

Michael MacBride: We get to what their judgment was one of the big side conversations. Here was the mom's right to share that information which you guys started to touch on. And some of the Internet said, Mom has the right to share her experience. And and

Michael MacBride: but how you walk that line of sharing your personal experience about something that impacts somebody else is really difficult. And so you know, the Internet and their ultimate wisdom had lots of ideas. I'm curious if you have thoughts about how to kind of splice that because I do think that's really difficult, like, I want to talk about this thing that I'm going through.

Michael MacBride: but it also involves this other thing, this other person who may or may not be okay with it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I am more okay with it. If we're talking about if we're talking about Mom

Dr. Daniel Kessler: sharing her own experience. But Mom can share that experience with like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, like, like going through a lot with kids, illnesses, and things in the family and could be, you know, I don't know. I think they're.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Such a slippery slope. Here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, there are ways of doing it that are that are, that are more about me and less about my kids. Medical history.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That said, if she showed up in my office and rump down and like oh, and I

Dr. Gayle MacBride: allowed to share and who's, you know I would spend some time talking with her about the need that she is hoping to get met

Dr. Gayle MacBride: through posting this right. You know, we know that we experience as a reader and a consumer of social media information that there is a need that the poster has in that situation, and and likely it seems to me that the need is support, you know, reaching out and feeling heard and seen and supported. So maybe we would start talking about ways to get that need met

Dr. Gayle MacBride: in a way that doesn't feel difficult for other family members. Right? You know the the cost of the support is the anger and upset of your husband, your spouse, your your child.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And you have a very real need here. And so what does that look like for you? How do we do that in a way that creates support for you as you go through something that sounds like it's ongoing and difficult and scary as a parent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I like that a lot I like, because that gets at the underlying motivation behind. Why, she's posting it, and I neglected that. But yeah, if she's posting all of this personal information, she's posting all of this about the kid.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If she's feeling

Dr. Daniel Kessler: that I mean, I love that I just. I don't want to repeat what you said already, because it was so well stated. But yeah, what need are you looking to get met? And is there another way of getting that met. So now we have a chance to get that win-win situation where where Dad gets the need for the privacy. And and mom gets the need for the support, and neither one of them is violating the other's ethical perspective or making the other one do things their way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wow! You came. You fixed this for them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I did.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Job.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's cool.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Ray. What did the Internet say? Michael.

Michael MacBride: It was pretty much a 50 50 split, I mean, there were some outliers, but the the majority of them fell in the camp of. You're not the asshole.

Michael MacBride: or everybody sucks here like those are really the 2 camps that everybody fell into.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: The everybody I could see the everybody sucks here. If Dad is perceived as being controlling and unyielding and demanding and hostile, I could. I could certainly see the everyone sucks here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and no one's letting Mom off the hook, though it sounds like.

Michael MacBride: No, very few of them. And you know, I mean, as you guys have pointed out in previous episodes, it's really hard you don't really get Mom's direct perspective. Here you get Dad.

Michael MacBride: who is obviously a you know he's invested in this scenario, and he he knows what he thinks is right, you know, and he is presenting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: He thinks he said it so who knows how it he actually, you know, initiated this conversation with his with his partner, and she may have doubled down on her defensiveness, depending on how harsh that startup was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It isn't. And the concept of the harsh startup is something people so rarely get. Well. They shouldn't say people so rarely get. People will struggle with this. They'll come into our office and say, like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I went to my wife, I see this guy going. I went to my wife, and I'm like, Hey, like, I don't think that's an appropriate thing for social media, and I would really take it down. And the wife is like, Are you kidding me. You stormed into the room, and you said, How dare you post that about our kid? How could you do something so stupid?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know he's recounting this, and and I could totally see like if he came into the room and and was like didn't use the positive. And I use that very like, Hey, I really think it's best. If we didn't do this she might react very different than if he came in guns blazing and called her stupid which people do sometimes with spouses, and it's awful to call names, and we certainly talk about that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But like like that, that idea of the harsh startup is so critical. How do you again a gale? How do you pull people away from that like? Do you just like boom? That was our startup and like, what do you do when you hear that story?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: When I hear it absolutely I will name it and say, You know, that sounds like harsh startup. Let's try this again, but let's try softening it, and I'll usually give them an example of what that sounds like, and I just love if we can do so. I I use kind of a 3 factor, maybe model back pocket skill. It always starts with compliment, follow with an I feel, and then I need

Dr. Gayle MacBride: right. If you can't do the real and genuine compliment. Ditch that one that is the one that is optional because we can smell a fake compliment a mile away won't help anybody right. But if you can start from a place of acknowledging what is good and right about your partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: the conversation goes a lot farther for you and for them, because it is a good reminder for you that they are not Satan incarnate. Right? You love this person. You agreed to partner with them like there's something there, and sometimes using that as a little bit of a touchstone is super helpful.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sorry.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And then we go on to the I feel and the I need right? So you you keep it in your court. You keep it about you right? Like I know you're you really mean? Well, here I feel really uncomfortable with this post. I need to talk to you a little bit about how we share our son's medical information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have a hard time. I would hope that Mom, in this situation if Dad walked in the room with like I get that you really want to talk about this? And this is important to you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I've just I read that, and it was hard for me. I felt like it may have crossed the line. I don't know. It is for son. I felt really uncomfortable with it. Would you be willing to change it or take it down, or like, I know, maybe Dad did approach it that way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But and we do only really have to underscore. We only get one side of this, and I wonder, you know, if if Mom would have written this. You know, Dad came in. My husband came in, guns ablazing like all angry and hostile towards me, and of course I got defensive and not that defensive is okay. That's a whole nother thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I would like to think that this couple. If they had a good, reasonable, rational conversation, they might come to a very different place.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, agreed other things from the comments Michael.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, I mean, those were really, I mean, you guys touched on most of them, I mean, regardless of whether it was everybody sucks here, or you're not the asshole, everybody commented. Like you shouldn't be posting

Michael MacBride: private information and medical information about your son without his permission, especially if he's a teenager, and the number of people asked how old he was, you know, like you pointed out, 13 and 18 is different, but she never or he never weighed in on the response to that.

Michael MacBride: You know, there were

Michael MacBride: those those people who there were very few people who said the dad was being an asshole, and they really called him out for manipulating the post, and to really make him seem best like he. You know the way he described the way the conversation went down, and his wife's reactions were clearly not objective. And they're like, Come on, man, you're really putting your finger on the scale. And blah blah, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It sounded that way to me, too, like I get the sense that he did not come in to the room with like kindness and gentleness and and positive intent. He came into the room with anger and frustration and irritation, and that sort of thing, so.

Michael MacBride: Yeah.

Michael MacBride: yeah, that's kind of what we got. But thanks so much again, for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And remember, if you're looking around trying to find the asshole, and you can't find one, it might be you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, my case, it usually is.

Michael MacBride: Yeah and stick around. We're going to read one of our mailbag questions. I'm going to throw it at Dan and Gayle and see what they come up with. But in the meanwhile, please do follow, share Veritas Views on any of the podcast platforms, with your neighbors and friends, and as always like, I said. Stick around. We'll have another chat just after Kelly says our

Michael MacBride: our disclaimer, our credits, all that kind of stuff. So see you on the other side.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Michael MacBride: so this I in this case I am the asshole. This post. This comment to one of our one of our podcasts has been sitting out there for 6 months, and I just noticed it the other day, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: 6 months.

Michael MacBride: I know I'm sorry.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wow!

Michael MacBride: I don't know what happened. It slipped through the filters.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know what ever.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But Michael, as Gayle and I've discussed being an asshole requires some intent.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: merely not noticing or or or doing things as well as you'd like to, doesn't make you the asshole.

Michael MacBride: I appreciate.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Unwilling I do not accept. I do not accept that you're the asshole in this case. However, your my podcast partner, who also happens to be your wife may disagree with that for all sorts of reasons that we won't get into.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really biased, and the judgment of my husband being an asshole, I kind of like the guy, you know. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So you don't think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, well, this is what.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wonderful that that's right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So, okay, so guys, we missed it and we're sorry. But here we are to rectify it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Ask away what is.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, yeah, so this is.

Michael MacBride: This is in relationship to the Super Bowl episode, which, for anybody who hasn't listened to it, go back and listen to it. But the very short version is, a group of friends get together for a super bowl thing, and 2 people show up with their young child, and they weren't told not to bring a child.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: . 18 months ago. If I recall.

Michael MacBride: Wow! Your memory is much better than mine. Yeah, I think that's right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah, I don't.

Michael MacBride: So this is this is the comment, and I'll I'll just read it just like it says, which is, Oh, my gosh, definitely, the asshole don't agree with the woman's psych. I assume that’s you, Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, Dan rarely gets mistaken as a woman, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not typically, not.

Michael MacBride: A host was under no obligation to explain the obvious that a Super bowl party is an adult event. Booze yelling, inappropriate jokes are part of the expectation. Same with weddings. Unless kids are specifically invited. Get a babysitter or don't go missing an event when your child kids are little is just part of being a parent, not the end of the world these 2 psychs are doing.

Michael MacBride: These 2 psychs are doing just what happens when a kid shows up at an adult event. The kids become the center of attention, and the adult behavior is modified to suit the kid. Not fun for many adults. I don't quite understand that last piece, but.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I do. And I think it's a really interesting perspective. You know, this person has brought a an alternative forward which I really do appreciate and and I kind of I thought about it a little bit as I read the mailbag question that that you know, we really did focus on what it was like to bring the kid there as opposed to having a basic understanding that this is an adults only because of the kind of activities. The food consumed that kind of thing, that it's really not a family event.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't want to discourage anyone from using our mailbag, but in this particular. And and so please send us your questions. I'm going to disagree respectfully. I think that not every Super Bowl party is an adults, only party, and I've been to many super bowl parties where there are kids involved, especially as I get a little older and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: more people in my friend group had kids. So I'm gonna I'm gonna respectfully disagree. And say, the kid, that there's not an assumption that a Super bowl party is kids only now the example he gave, or she gave of a wedding

Dr. Daniel Kessler: wedding invitations are very specific.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And only the people who are listed on the invitation. So if the wedding invitation comes to me and my wife, I'm never going to presume I can bring a kid to a wedding.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and we can get into like an infant, maybe, but like at what point does the infant no longer qualifies an infant, and there's some math there, and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but it's that's at the very most at least, a question for the for the couple getting married. The Super Bowl party. I disagree.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I think the only hesitation I have is, I think, in the scenario that we were given. The fact pattern, such as it was was that this was the only couple with children, and so I think the person who wrote into the mailbag is bringing an interesting perspective, that we make some assumptions about who is coming to the party. If you and I were having, let's say, a super bowl party 5 years ago, we, or even, you know, 8 years ago, like we would have assumed that we were bringing children, and that would

Dr. Gayle MacBride: 100%

Dr. Gayle MacBride: baseline assumption. I think now, you know, when our children are older, it's maybe more of a question mark of whether or not I mean, it's us. So yes, the kids are always welcome. But in the in the posters. Fact pattern. I think it was. We're the 1st ones. We have a fairly younger, I think, happening. And I think up until that point. It probably was adults only.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And so that transition into we bring kids, maybe, is a bit more on the parents. Or I like the perspective of sometimes as parents. You don't go to things, and and you have. And I just again it was separate from this particular event, but a nice reminder that as parents, we will focus on raising our children and the activities that we used to attend start to change. And we don't always all of the things, and I thought that was a valuable thing to bring forward.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What our yeah, what our mailbag person, I think, and what I'm now, I'm gonna really be less what our mailbag person missed is

Dr. Daniel Kessler: we're always talking about how everything we need to have conversations.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And we're not supposed to make assumptions, and while it may not be unreasonable to assume that party is going to be, whatever

Dr. Daniel Kessler: that's a conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: These things should be conversations. Yeah. So I'm gonna

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm gonna again as respectfully as I can disagree with our with our mailbag person. But please like disagree with me. Send us a mailbag question. Tell us I'm tell me I'm wrong. Those are always fun to get.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Cool.

Michael MacBride: And I'll say we do have a contact. Us form right on the podcast page. I would definitely recommend using that those come right in directly to our inbox, where the YouTube comments. Sometimes I miss them. I'm sorry we do our best to keep up with them, but anyway, thanks to everyone for tuning in thanks for sending us the comment tune in again next week for a whole other am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Jen, we started season one, and we routinely had discussions about a favorite item. Or excuse me an item in each other's office. Let me ask a question and tell the story, and it was kind of interesting. And so I'm not sure if I see your office behind you here on the video screen. But I was going to ask you what is a favorite item that

Dr. Gayle MacBride: you have in your office that maybe tells a story a little bit about you or your practice.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah, so I am. I have 2 desks. I'm looking out windows, and then I've got a desk behind me. But right in the middle of 2 of my screens, which you can't see is my saddle.

Dr. Jennifer Service: and I used. I used to be an equestrian and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is that like the pop, the the punk band thing that, like Tuesday.

Dr. Jennifer Service: It's all wrapped together. Yes, I rode horses, and I was in a punk band at the same time.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yes, my! From when I was a kid. My saddle is is right here, and it's and I often think about

Dr. Jennifer Service: getting back literally on the horse. But then, now that I am nearly your age, Dan. I

Dr. Jennifer Service: I'm too afraid to fall so so it's it's a reminder of of early years.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's really cool. That's something I did not know about you. We I like, I said earlier. I've known you for 20 years, and I didn't.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah, it's probably been that long since I've written. Yeah, cool. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for tuning in everyone. Tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks

Michael MacBride: Thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi, I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride. I'm a clinical psychologist, and joined by my business partner and fellow psychologist and coffee connoisseur, Dr. Daniel Kessler. Welcome this morning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you for the welcome. Dr. MacBride, yeah. As I mentioned, often high point of the week recording this podcast. Because it gives us a chance to shoot the shit about psychology in a way that's a little bit more lighthearted and a little bit less serious. And the Internet always brings us.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We generally count on the Internet to bring us something really interesting. So, Michael, what do you have for what do you have for us today?

Michael MacBride: Yeah, well, welcome, both of you. And this is also a high point of my week as well. So for any of the Newbies out there who don't know what we're talking about, am I? The asshole is a scenario where somebody has posted a situation on the Internet and essentially said, who's in the wrong? Who's the asshole here? And that's what Doctors Kessler and MacBride will hopefully help us at least parse through

Michael MacBride: where there's been any kind of identifiable information. I've removed that and kind of cleaned it up, and if you're new, stick around through the credits, we always have some kind of bonus conversation at the end of it. But neither Dan nor Gayle know what I'm going to throw their way. I always like to hit them cold, and this is the topic I got for you today.

Michael MacBride: Am I the asshole for letting other people take my kids and I to Disney? When I knew my husband was not okay with it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So maybe

Dr. Daniel Kessler: what we don't know is why husband isn't okay with it, because she was like, she's being like a bit sketchy here with that. Not putting that in, or he I don't know. I didn't mean to assume

Dr. Daniel Kessler: that that that OP. Was female, but I don't. We need to know why husband's not okay with it, Gayle, you want to judge this book by its cover, or do you want to.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, not really, I mean, because I think you're right, like we need to know way more information here. But I have so many questions about how someone else can afford. Take you and your kids to Disney. That shit's expensive.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I've had it done.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: There!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Give us the fact.

Michael MacBride: Yeah. Okay. So husband and wife, wife is the poster, Dan, and they are 25. She's slightly younger. 25. He's 28. That age gap matters or not. They have 2 young children, one is 6, and one is 5,

Michael MacBride: a son and daughter. I don't know that that matters either. But we'll give you that. And this is what she says. We're not wealthy, but manage to cover our needs, though we rarely have extra for things like eating out or new toys. My husband has a firm stance against accepting handouts or gifts, he considers excessive

Michael MacBride: even from family or friends. He also insists on paying for others whenever we go out, even if they're better off than we are. We've argued about this before, but I usually let it go because it's so important to him.

Michael MacBride: Last week we threw a birthday party for our son and invited his whole class of 23 kids, but no one came except for one girl and her parents. Our son was devastated, but the girl's parents, who go to Disney world frequently offered to take us all and to cover everything.

Michael MacBride: I initially said it was too much, but they insisted. So we went, and it turned out his birthday. It turned his birthday party around. His experience of just having the one kid show up. He had an amazing time, but when my husband found out he was furious that I accepted such a big gesture, accusing me of being untrustworthy with money, and saying he should.

Michael MacBride: he should take more control of our finances. I feel bad for upsetting him, but still believe I made the right choice to save our son's birthday. Who's the asshole here?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, I gotta.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have a side question here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Where was dad during the birthday party?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Because it sounds like Dad was gone, and mom was the birthday party with the kid, and only one kid showed up, but, like initially one kid showing up. His dad didn't show up at the party because they went to Disney. Well, am I? Am I off base here? Didn't they get? Did they.

Michael MacBride: So the I'm sorry. So the birth. Yeah, I. This is probably in the details I cut out. So it originally. So the birthday party happened. It kind of didn't you know the one person showed up? And then that family said

Michael MacBride: we'd love to take you to Disney World and just have an amazing experience. So that happened on a different day without Dad's knowledge.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: One thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Show up for the birthday party. It goes kind of clunk. And then, as a part of that, this family says, Hey, let's get together again at a separate date and time. So Mom now knows this and withhold that information.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Some period for some period of time, and then, you know, because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, see?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: World.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know that she's an asshole for wanting to take the kids to Disney world, or even taking the kids to Disney World. So we can talk about what we do, and and we'll have a conversation, I'm sure, about what we do. When one parent feels one way and another parent feels another way.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But by withholding that information from him until afterwards.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have a problem with this. That's a betrayal of trust.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It is, it is, I agree, you know, especially, you know it's it's that that idea of. If they had showed up on the day of, and hey, nobody else is here. Let's just shift gears and head over to Disney like that feels different than holding on to that information. Let's say for a week going next weekend. Now you've had a week to talk about this with your partner, and you didn't, and I agree trust is a very fragile thing

Dr. Gayle MacBride: it's easy to break. It's important to hold and make whole with your partner, but I'm guessing that she anticipated an argument and so avoided it altogether.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not okay, not okay, no, not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not. Okay. This is one of those like, like, I get that. And we both have worked with lots of couples where they will see an argument coming, and they don't really have a good template for resolving that argument.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and because they don't have that template, they avoid it entirely. And here's a great example of a couple that appears to by and where we always add to the fact pattern in ways that suit our needs. But it appears that this couple doesn't have a template to resolve the conflict, so she simply

Dr. Daniel Kessler: moves on and makes a decision. I have a lot of.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I have a lot of problem with that with her mate, with her doing that I also have a lot of this couple. Clearly, again, my world must have some issues.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Perhaps perhaps perhaps perhaps

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I am.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I understand that I'm empathetic toward this idea of. I will

Dr. Gayle MacBride: ask forgiveness instead of permission, except, I think, in this case she knew she wasn't going to get forgiveness on it. She just really punted this down the line and just figured it's done is done, and I will take it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: you know, on the chin when this comes along. And and so I don't even think it really fits that, you know, asking for forgiveness instead of permission level of things which I'm not advocating, for in in marriages or relationships at all. But I do think there are things we know about our partner where they would not necessarily be thrilled about. Xyz. But you know we do it, and they're like

Dr. Gayle MacBride: it's done. But this wasn't going to be that issue.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I'm gonna just want to clarify this because you and I may have a disagreement on this. I think that I do, by the way, agree that there's many situations in which sometimes you go. All right. I'll ask for forgiveness, but not permission.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't think that works in a marriage

Dr. Daniel Kessler: right? But we like. If I know my partner's gonna be upset with something and I do it. I've made 2 like I've taken. So if I if I if I want to do the thing that makes them upset, and I tell them I do it. Anyway, they're upset with me about that thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: If I don't tell them until afterwards, because I know they're going to be upset with me

Dr. Daniel Kessler: about something important. And this is obviously really important. Then I've done that thing, and I've done a second thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I lose, and then we lose trust. We harm the trust in the relationship. Like, I think that's okay to do when you know the person is going to be a little annoyed by it, but in the end they're going to be fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: right? And this is one of those situations where she's not going to be a little annoyed and then fine! He's going to be pissed and feel betrayed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, and she definitely has compounded it in the interest of saying yes to this really generous gift.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and we can get to whether his feelings are reasonable about it, too, because we'll get there. But, like right now, I'm not okay with her doing this without talking it with over with her husband first, st and with accepting it on the spot. That's 1 of those things where you say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That is such a generous gift I would let me. Let's talk about like is the husband wife like? Give each other the look and like, let's talk about this. Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think I disagree with you a little bit. There, I think she is allowed to accept the gift. I just think she shouldn't have hidden it, I think she should have been more transparent with him, saying, You know, maybe I know you don't really agree with this. I think this is really important for our child, and I've gone ahead and said, Yes, and I know it's going to make you angry. We can. We can work on that. But I need you to know. I said yes to this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I I agree

Dr. Daniel Kessler: we're not in disagreement there. Okay, I agree with you there. I think there are times, you know. We sit down with our partner, and there are. There are times we're going to find a way to come to an agreement.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and times we're not going to find a way to come to an agreement, and we don't come to an agreement. Then we have to figure out how we're going to handle the fact that we can't both simultaneously go to Disney World and not go to Disney World.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So since we can't both go and not go, someone is going to give in here, or someone is going to override their partner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And there are times when we do that, and it harms the relationship. But it's gonna in this case the relationship is going to get harmed by this in some way.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and she has to choose, and he has to choose which. What? Which brings about the greater harm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I I so I totally agree that we can disagree and sometimes do something our partner doesn't agree with. I think the keeping it a secret. I'm not okay with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's all I mean is like I heard you initially to say that she should have taken that offer and back for advisement, and thought about it before accepting on the spot. Well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: an ideal or or wonderful response. I'm simply arguing. I think she has the the right to also accept that in the moment. But she also needs to put on her big girl pants and understand that it's going to have an impact on her marriage.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I'm going to respectfully disagree and say that I want that. I want that to be a conversation

Dr. Daniel Kessler: before there's an override of of the other person, I think, accepting on the spot.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Feeling.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Not okay with.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Really, I just don't fall on the side of not okay with it. I think it's the less ideal option, but I think it's an option.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You're honest about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It, it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And and it's not the course I would have taken.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And we can agree.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: We can we do that often enough?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I just be clear. I wouldn't. I wouldn't take it as an option, I think, as a grown ass woman who is a parent to these kids. I I just want her to have that as a as as an answer.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Michael, I think, was trying to like, interject something at 1 point.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Were you, Michael?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Totally, totally.

Michael MacBride: I was just gonna add 1. 1 kind of logistical thing that I got hung up on was like where these people live, and they apparently live within an hour of Orlando. So like it wasn't. It wasn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Even a question in my mind.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We just.

Michael MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Both Gayle and I assumed. So here's the.

Michael MacBride: Hopefully, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. Oh, well, because this is how that works. And Michael, you and I have cousins that live in that area, and they go for fucking lunch, like what you do when you live in the area. So that's that's not a huge deal. They've got a resident, you know, State Resident pass, and they they go all the time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I had that when I lived in Florida many, many years ago, and you know sometimes those things can actually be pretty inexpensive. At least it was in the nineties

Dr. Daniel Kessler: in the day, Laura, for residents. But now I want to shift over to husband because

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't want to. He's like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: he's making some very blanket statements about things. I will not accept this. We cannot do this like there's something going on with him that I'm also not okay with

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like, I don't want to give him a pass at all like we started with her.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no

Dr. Daniel Kessler: question. But I'm really struggling with this guy who who one won't accept gifts from others, and 2 really wants to pay for things for other people like what's going on with that for him?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And sometimes that's cultural. And so there is a deeply baked perception of who, you are especially in some cultures around masculinity being the head of household things like that problematic here is, I think he has overlaid that on the entire family as opposed to even just saying, this is how I want to do things. He's now demanding this of his wife, and and I think that's an overreach.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think so too, and while I objected to her keeping things a secret from him, I really object to from

Dr. Daniel Kessler: to him, saying, you may not do this like I won't allow you to do this thing. That's really important to you that you think is good for our kids, and because I don't feel comfortable with it. I am not permitting you to do it, like, I'm not okay with that either.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I mean. So for if for whatever reason, this family really wants to take this this kid, and it's part of what they're what they're okay with doing. I struggle with declining them on this one.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and I really struggle with the client because there seems to be some sense of masculinity and not willingness to accept gifts on your kid's behalf, and I feel like that could be harming

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like he may be harming his kids with his own shit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I would agree. I think there is a lesson to be learned, and how to generously accept gifts when given, and I think

Dr. Gayle MacBride: allowing someone to create an experience for you and your family. There's there's an opportunity for connection and deeper relationships here with this family. I think that they would miss out by saying No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and and I think that, having a rigid view of accepting any kind of gifts, any sort of rigidity concerns me a lot, you know. We can't have one answer for every situation, and it does feel like Dad is imposing this on the entire family. So it's not just how he's living his life, but he's imposing that. And by product he's teaching his kids this and that rigidity is not serving him, and it's not serving his wife. And it's definitely not serving his kids.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But I think about this like, like our own family, we take a vacation most summers, and there have been a number of times we've gone on family vacations where we've taken

Dr. Daniel Kessler: one of our kids friends and and we don't. We're not doing it because, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: they're doing it because it's a better vacation for our kids and a better vacation, and it's enjoyable. And so it's we've done that a number of times taken. Other taken one or more of our kids friends along on a family vacation, because it was a great vacation to do it that way, and when we do that we don't expect

Dr. Daniel Kessler: the family to pay anything, and it's not because we it just. It just creates a better vacation for our family, and we've certainly done that a number of times, and and you know we don't know the motivation of the outside family.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It it made, you know. I think the dad is going. Oh, they're treating us like we can't afford things, and he's feeling emasculated by it. And this may just be a family like this is great for us. We really enjoy taking other people to Disney world with our kids and having other people see Disney with our kids and having them join our kids. And like, like, I think there's this assumption on Dad's part of some emasculating process. It just isn't. This may not be there. It's, you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And we have to keep in mind. This is a really young couple. He's a little older than she, and they have kids who are already school age. So they were having. She was having kids by the time she was probably 19.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, yeah, I didn't think about that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Experience. Individuals who, especially nowadays, are having kids, real young

Dr. Gayle MacBride: sometimes show up with some level of defensiveness and protectiveness around that often a decision to be a young parent. It's not a Oh, my gosh! I'm surprised sometimes it is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but it's an intentionality of I want to be a parent, and I understand, or they feel automatically judged for having started a family at that young age. And so we may see that this couple is being very protective about their ability to show up in the adult world

Dr. Gayle MacBride: with kids this age and be taken seriously. And so it may be that he's feeling emasculated. It just may be that he is feeling, and I don't know what the word would be infantilized. Maybe he's that's maybe the thing right. You show up in this world with kids this age, and he's that age and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and feels like he's not taken seriously. And this may be the only way that he thinks he can be seen as as a really as an adult that belongs at the big kid table. You know what I mean, like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: There's a sensitivity around this clinically when I see it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I feel for this guy because he's got some stuff going on. I'm not without. I'm not without some or empathy sympathy

Dr. Daniel Kessler: for his situation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and at the same time I'm struggling with him, enforcing that on his wife and and kids like that. You cannot do this the same way. I was not okay with with the wife, saying, I'm absolutely doing this, you know. Have a choice or not telling him, and just having him like find out afterwards. I'm not okay with him, enforcing his will on her.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah. No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Being willing to take into.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Agree.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So like there's there's I'm not happy with really anyone in this scenario except for the kid

Dr. Daniel Kessler: parents, the other kids parents like. I'm cool with them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm totally cool with them. But I'm not. I mean, if we're gonna I don't want to jump the gun into the into the decision-making phase, but like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm not happy with either either one of them, like, I think they're both being kind of shitty.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, I would say, the parents will suck here for sure. I think you know, we can agree on that. I don't think the other parents suck at all. I think that was kind and generous, and and you know, yes or no, going or not going would have would have been a financer from this family, just not one that was from a place of this rigidity and deceit.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right right, and I would have loved it if the if husband and wife could have had a conversation about this, and come to a conclusion that works for the 2 of them second best. They have a conversation about it, and they can't come to a conclusion that works for the 2 of them, and you know

Dr. Daniel Kessler: she in the end she says.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: All right. I you know I disagree with you, and I'm going anyway, or I disagree with you, and I'm going to not go. But either way that they have, they. They

Dr. Daniel Kessler: figure out a. They work on their template for resolution rather than making decisions and having it just happen, and finding out afterwards, and being mad at each other, and enforcing the will on each other, and all that other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Do stuff.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't. I don't like. I'm not hopeful. Here. I'm feeling sad about this couple. Yeah, like I want them to work on some shit.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Michael, what did the Internet say?

Michael MacBride: Yeah, I was gonna say, I mean, for the most part, the Internet really came down on the that she's not the asshole for accepting the trip.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, that was.

Michael MacBride: That was that was fine. Almost everybody then commented about problems with communication.

Michael MacBride: You know there were a fair number of votes for everybody sucks here because the husband's controlling. He's you know he has this harsh line. She's not communicating. She didn't. She wasn't forthcoming about it. She kept it from him. You know, that really need to do a better job of of talking through some of those differences instead of asking for forgiveness.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, there it was, it was pretty much in line with what you guys talked about. The one that was a little surprising was, some of them said, there are no assholes here, and I was like what.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No.

Michael MacBride: There are lots of assholes here, and basically

Michael MacBride: basically their response. There was like sympathies with both parties. But there are no assholes. Everybody's just doing their thing. It's like, that's not how a family functions.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But maybe this is more common than we realize.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I I hope I hope not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But the Internet seems to have a sort of a a level of representation of like, yeah, that's how I'd handle it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no! These conversations need to happen, and they need to happen in a meaningful way between between the couple and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, we keep rolling back to this idea? What is it that Gottman said, you know? Shout out John and Julie Gottman, is it? Is it two-thirds of 60 something percent of conflicting couples or arguments don't get resolved. I don't remember.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think it's north of that, but sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, so substantial percentage, we expect that we're going to be able to resolve all conflicts. And we're probably not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Most conflicts between couples are not going to get resolved. So if they're not going to get resolved.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: how do we cope with the non-resolution of our conflicts?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, no right. And they would argue that we need to do this from an empathically attuned place. And what's great about gotten work? Is, it really can help provide couples with that template you keep using that word like, how do I do this? Okay, here's how, from an emotion standpoint, but also just from a practical standpoint. How do we hold space for 2 different opinions while we listen to each other and understand, maybe, what

Dr. Gayle MacBride: biography or backstory. We bring to that conversation that flavors our perspective, that we're you know we are here now, and maybe we can modify that based on hearing what our partner has to say.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: because they also are products of their biography and backstory. You know the family, the influence, the culture, those things. But we hold space for both of those things before we make a shared decision.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right, totally totally agree. This couple. This is a couple who, I think, you know, I think this couple could benefit from some time in a therapy office, potentially like just sitting down and talking about my needs, your needs, how we communicate getting along better, what's going on for him, with his with his with his stuff. I'm also, you know, we don't mention this. But

Dr. Daniel Kessler: what's going on with the kid here, I mean, is there something going on with that kid that they're with friendships like what I don't want to miss the Internet, Michael, I don't know if the Internet caught talked about that much or not. But like this poor kid, I'm assuming that the class had 20 students, and only one showed up like, what

Dr. Daniel Kessler: what's there's a there's a problem here.

Michael MacBride: They didn't really go into that. And and I wondered that as well, the one thing they touched on that was like the side conversation that I kind of followed, which you guys already talked about quite a bit, was how young the couple is, and you know those kind of

Michael MacBride: starting that young with those children in school age and trying to figure out those dynamics. Almost everybody there suggested, like therapy, you know, to to work these things out like you were talking about. But yeah, but yeah, nobody really touched on the poor kid who 23 students in his class so slightly more than 20 even, and only one showed up. And who knows? Like there are lots of reasons people don't come to kid birthday parties, so.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sorts of stuff. We don't. We don't. We don't know about that. But I'm really curious about why no one showed up. And what's where there's something going on here. And I think there's there's just opportunities. We talked a lot about opportunities. There's lots of opportunities for this couple. There's opportunities for this kiddo. There's opportunities for.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, well, thank you both again, for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, life is not. I don't know a Disney movie.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I don't like that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Alright.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't know works, it works. I like it.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, please follow and share veritas views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through the

Michael MacBride: credits, for whatever the bonus conversation is, I believe it's on Dan this time.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Dr. MacBride.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes Dr. Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Favorite Disney movie. And why?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, boom!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I know, putting you on the spot here. Yeah, favorite Disney. And, by the way, I'm just going to clarify.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: we do include Pixar.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: However, we do not include Star Wars.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Property. We don't allow that. That's not. That's not permitted.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's not permitted, all right. Well, that's fine. I wouldn't have picked a Star Wars movie, anyway.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So I mean, I think probably the favorite movie is Mary Poppins. I grew up watching that Julie Anders is lovely and delightful, and I as a kid, I just. I watched that so many times. I think I wore the VHS tape out, and I think my parents had to either re-recorded, or buy me a new version of the Vhs tape. But probably most quoted is cars.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: He did what in this cup?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So that's a favorite Disney Pixar quote in our house. But probably not my favorite movie. Probably Mary Poppins.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Fair enough, thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Great question. Thanks.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for asking. That was a great question. It's always I knew what she was going to say, but I didn't think about cars. But you're right. We do quote that one so often because our kids watched it so many times. But anyway, thanks everyone for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, Dr. Daniel Kessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride are joined by Dr. Jennifer Service. Dr. Jennifer Service is a board-certified psychiatrist with a subspecialty in forensic psychiatry and over 25 years of experience in adult psychiatric care and forensic assessments. A graduate of the University of Minnesota Medical School, she trained at Salem Hospital, Massachusetts General Hospital, and Harvard Law and Psychiatry Service. She has held leadership roles at Hennepin County Medical Center and the Minnesota Security Hospital, ultimately serving as Forensic Medical Director for Minnesota State Operated Forensic Services, overseeing a wide range of forensic mental health programs. For the past 13 years, Dr. Service has provided outpatient psychiatric care, consulted for law firms, conducted forensic assessments, and testified in civil and criminal cases.

You can find her online at her private practice, Minnesota Forensic Psychiatry Consultants:  https://www.mnforensic.com, or at the Mankato Clinic: https://www.mankatoclinic.com/providers/jennifer-service/

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Michael MacBride: Excellent thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists. Trio today.

Michael MacBride: Sorry, trio!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: An additional mental health professional is present.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, right, and I'm really excited to have the opportunity to introduce my friend of 20 years. Dr. Jennifer Service is a board-certified psychiatrist who also holds board certifications in neurology and forensic psychiatry. I met her working in the forensic psychiatry world. She has done this work for 27 years. Sorry to out you there, Jenn.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: She started forensic psychiatrist for the State of Minnesota, became the clinical director of a security hospital. Eventually, when I met her, was the forensic medical director for the State.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and then she completely changed pace and started doing a and I'm not saying slow down, because I don't think she knows how to slow down, taking care of general psychiatry patients in an adult clinic and started her own forensic practice in 2010, called Minnesota forensic psychiatry consultants, where she does civil and criminal work.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: She specializes in law enforcement and doing work for homeland security, border patrol

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and other local law enforcement agencies, but

Dr. Gayle MacBride: little known fact to pay her way through medical school. She might have been the lead vocalist for a punk group called Mad Grace. Kids spelled with 2 Ds.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: yeah, I'm just kidding. That's not true.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, that's not exactly.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Remember that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's not true.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's not true, but one of my favorite things with Dr. Jennifer Service, because she is so smart and unflappable is to just feed something out there

Dr. Gayle MacBride: to get her to laugh, cause.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I was ready to be impressed.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Test. I know. I know. I made that up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I was totally gonna believe that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I should.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Gone with it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm also joined, of course, today by another esteemed cog colleague, Dr. Daniel Kessler. He's been my coworker for a dozen years, and my business partner for almost 2. So welcome, Jenn.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Excited super excited to have Dr. Service here with us today.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I'm glad that you reviewed our podcast so you know what you're in for so Jenn. Welcome.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: All right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Michael, do you have something interesting for for us and for Dr. Jennifer service?

Michael MacBride: I hope so. I try to. Anyway. Yeah, we'll we'll see. I don't know well, so far they've all worked out, so I think I think it'll work so.

Michael MacBride: Oh.

Michael MacBride: welcome, all 3 of you for any of the Newbies out there, if this is your 1st episode, and you're not sure what you've stumbled into. Essentially. What I've done is I've gone on the Internet, and I found a scenario that somebody has shared, and they're essentially asking for advice. They're like, who is the asshole here who's in the wrong? And that's what we hope to figure out. If there's been any identifiable information. I've tried to make a little more discreet and kind of clean that up. And then, if you're new, also stick around through the credits, we always have some kind of bonus conversation afterwards. That's it's just kind of fun. So.

Michael MacBride: But I have not shared the topic. I'm going to deliver to them right now with any of them. It's always a surprise, and I love to kind of catch them cold to see what they say. So this is what we got today's is, am I the asshole for refusing to wake my boyfriend up in the morning, which made him almost lose his job.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Hmm.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I definitely need to know more. We often judge books by covers and jump on a headline.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This was a firm. Maybe.

Michael MacBride: So I did try to find something forensic, but like I don't know, I couldn't think of exactly what that would be. And I was like, you know, there aren't like murder cases or criminality that were very obvious. So this had an element of like men's rea and some of those things, so I don't know. We've talked about some of that before. We'll see what comes out. But.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm sure Dr. Service has been asked to write a letter or 2 to help people keep their jobs because of, you know, maybe decisions or attendance, or something so like this, is not outside her scope or no.

Michael MacBride: This is what we got.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Facts.

Michael MacBride: Boyfriend girlfriend are 25 ish. They've been dating for about a year, and he's always struggled to wake up on time because of his ADHD. He sleeps through all his alarms, which means he's often late, sometimes by 10 to 15 min, but sometimes by an hour. His boss likes him and has been patient. But yesterday he got a final warning that if he's late again he'll lose his job.

Michael MacBride: My boyfriend seems to think it's my responsibility to wake him up, but I don't think it should be. He's an adult, and has known about his ADHD since childhood, so I feel like he should have figured out a system by now when he makes it my responsibility. It makes me feel like his caregiver and not his girlfriend.

Michael MacBride: I do try to help. I've done research on alternative methods, but he refuses to try them or says they don't work. I also wake him up when his alarms go off, but he usually just goes right back to sleep on top of that. He's super grumpy in the mornings, and he's even yelled at me for both waking him up and not waking me up.

Michael MacBride: waking him up, which is confusing to me about what he wants. This whole situation affects me. I'm in school, I work evenings. So I'm also exhausted, especially if I can't fall asleep because he's up gaming or watching TV late in our tiny apartment.

Michael MacBride: After the his warning, I felt guilty for not doing more. But we talked, and he admitted, it's

Michael MacBride: not my responsibility. I'll try to help where I can, but I still feel like he's judging and blaming me. Who's the asshole for him? Potentially have having lost his job.

Dr. Jennifer Service: I have some thoughts.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay, kick us off because I feel you're overwhelmed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'll say Gail and I usually just leap right in, and we're both sitting here like good therapists, being quiet, allowing the space for doctor service.

Dr. Jennifer Service: So I, you know, in my clinical world, but also in the forensic world. Accountability is a big thing, and accountability is really helpful for people not to commit crimes and holding people accountable. And you know I mean, if he indeed gave her mixed messages, and was unwilling to accept some of her help or suggestions. I mean, I I feel like it's on him. It's it, you know, that he needs to have some repercussions

Dr. Jennifer Service: so that he can make some meaningful change. I do think, as a partner you take care of each other, but if your partner is, you know, serially rejecting your help?

Dr. Jennifer Service: Or is just inconsistent with what they want from you? Then, at the end of the day, I think it's on you, and and you are responsible for your job and getting out of bed ultimately. And and if you're not going to accept that help, you need to be held accountable, which it sounds like he was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Of the day, by the way, serially rejecting.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Love, that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Love that? Yes.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Phrase, yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, I think this is this is interesting because you hit on something that really occurred to me, which was as partners. We choose to show up for each other and help each other.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and we have the right to say I can't help with that I can do lots of other things, and I get some choices. I don't. I'm not obligated to help you with all of the things and the other thing that sort of strikes me is while this individual has ADHD, and they're not responsible for the fact that they have it. They they do have an amount of accountability and responsibility that they hold to, to take care of it, to work within it, and to figure out strategies. And I don't think your your girlfriend can really be a long term strategy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no, if if he were, if he had diabetes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: he's not responsible for having diabetes at all like that. He didn't choose to have diabetes. We're talking type one diabetes. There's no choice there. And yet he would be responsible for making sure that his blood sugar stayed in the right level. He took the proper insulin, and he might want some assistance. It's nice if our partner reminds us.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Awesome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But it ain't. It ain't. It ain't her responsibility to make sure she gets up in the morning if she's willing to be kind and help

Dr. Daniel Kessler: fine.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but the 1st time he like gives her crap about it, or yells at or rejects her help like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think he's. I think she's discharged her responsibility.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I have a kind of a problem that we have some stones here that he could turn and try. And he's not, you know, and he's just kind of landed on this solution. That he thinks is a solution which isn't a solution, because he's only variably, you know, accepting of it, and that there are other options like a, you know, a boom alarm, or one of those app driven alarms that are just all allowed like this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: This is not her responsibility.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I as a sleep, as someone who treats sleep and gown. I both both treat sleep quite a bit, but as you you stumbled into, and I restrained myself from jumping in. While you were talking, Michael, you stumbled into a sleep. An issue, she said. He sets. He sleeps through all of his alarms

Dr. Daniel Kessler: stop setting tons of alarms. People think that if they set like 8 alarms over like an hour, they're gonna but all it's gonna do is give them like an hour of really shitty sleep, where the alarms keep going off and waking them up, and your brain knows I don't have to get up yet, because it's only alarm. Number 3, and I got 4 more to go, and at some level he's done the same thing with his girlfriend like. Oh, I don't have to wake up because she'll she'll try again, and not putting it on her, and and like I always tell folks set one alarm and hit one snooze, and, like you get up.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Set it for for multiple alarms.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm wondering what the 2 of you think about the ADHD angle on this, or have another conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not making the ADHD any better by shit setting. Probably a series of 8 shitty alarms like you really are shorting yourself. Sleep opportunity here, and and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: that's just never going to improve your ADHD symptoms. Get good rest and and.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Get one snooze.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Well, I think that he needs to make an appointment with his psychiatrist.

Dr. Jennifer Service: I mean, what? What is going on here? Is he not?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's obvious.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Can he not fall asleep at night, I mean, does he need to adjust the timing of his dose or his dose of stimulant? I mean assuming he's taking a stimulant. I mean I you know these things can often be fixed like you said, by the the alarm issue, but also

Dr. Jennifer Service: the dosing of medication, timing of medication. And and it's I mean, you can often fix that relatively easily. So he again needs to be accountable and and make an appointment with his doctor, and not have his girlfriend be his doctor, or his alarm clock.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I suspect there's a hint in here for us. He's staying up late gaming, and he's clearly report for morning or work it sometime in the morning. So he is messing with his sleep, and I'm wondering when he's actually dosed if he's on a medication, and when he's dosing that.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Because sometimes we're motivated to stay up because we want a game, and those are the late time hours. And so me

Dr. Gayle MacBride: push my dose back, and you know, into the night, where you know, so that I can stay up and stay focused.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So maybe what part of what we're seeing here is that ADHD, like that high, stim environment of the gaming is so rewarding.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Are we seeing like is that they're framing this as a waking up problem. But and and, Jen, I appreciate your comments about this because it's like, it sounds like it's

Dr. Daniel Kessler: maybe not even a going up problem. It's a going to bed problem.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Right, right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like maybe medication too late in the day, but maybe also, like he's not going. If you don't go to bed until whatever o'clock in the morning. You're not going to wake up in the morning for work like like the problem isn't isn't morning, Guy. It's night. Guy. Keep up all here. Maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, no, I think that's a good way of thinking about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. So like, I mean, her question is, Am I the asshole here?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, no, I think we're all circling around the the. She's not the asshole here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: She's not the asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Is he an asshole, or is he a person.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Kind of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: See that really under so

Dr. Gayle MacBride: how much impairment this is causing in his life, including that that lack of going to bed on time. Sometimes. ADHD people talk about like almost the dread of the bed like, I gotta. I gotta wind down and I gotta de-stimulate from the day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not nearly as much fun sounds much interesting. It's not as interesting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, he's not an asshole for for not get for having difficulty with his sleep, or or being soaked about gaming necessarily.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But the treatment of the girlfriend here, the blaming her for for things that are his responsibility like he loses Job, and he's blaming her for that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, no like. And you can't get up in the morning, and it's your girlfriend's fault. No, that's not that. That about that. Yeah, yeah, I think I think he is. I think I'm not.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I'm not okay with the taking responsibility for my behavior and placing it on someone else

Dr. Daniel Kessler: which is like.

Dr. Jennifer Service: I agree.

Dr. Jennifer Service: I agree. But you know this, this is, maybe there's a great opportunity. Let's repackage this, that he can now make some meaningful change. And and maybe it'll stick because jobs are important for most of us. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And maybe he'll treat his new job and his new girlfriend, or if they go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's what I'm thinking, like, I sort of think that this girlfriend is like teetering on this edge of I don't know that I want to be responsible for this, and if he's not gonna separate me from this, then maybe this is not my, you know. Best long term relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Maybe repackaging this as she's learning something he may or may not. He sounds like he is lacking some.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah. Now, we always have to caveat this that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We're getting her side of it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: True.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: On the other hand, I just can't think of a side of his that's like.

Dr. Jennifer Service: I can't, either. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No, I've had people show up in my office and say essentially that, like she's she, it's her fault like she's not waking me up, and that's her job. I was supposed to get to work on him. She didn't do it.

Dr. Jennifer Service: No, no, he's

Dr. Jennifer Service: he's not 7. So I'm assuming he's not and so, at what age, you know. Do you not need somebody to wake you up, and I think it's actually your teenage years. Honestly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Absolutely, and part of me is like you, sir, are a grand ass, man, but on top of that I mean, this gives us a when we when we work with folks. One of the things that I'm hearing here is like, I have ADHD. Therefore I cannot right, and we're always working folks with folks to say, I have this, this illness, this disability, whatever.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And now I'm responsible. It's not fair that I have it.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But it's my responsibility to deal with it.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah, it's interesting. I do. A lot of disability claims as well in my civil work, and people assume that, you know, if you're diagnosed with depression or anxiety, or anything, ADHD, that you are disabled, and you shouldn't be held accountable, and you shouldn't be able. People shouldn't expect things of you, which isn't the case, because most of us manage something in our lives, and and most of us don't decide that we're disabled. But a lot of people just sort of throw up their hands and say, Well.

Dr. Jennifer Service: I have this. I just can't be held responsible. Or I can't, you know, complete these tasks, or what have you? And it's it's remarkably common. Yeah. And I see that a lot.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And when someone is disabled and they truly can't we? Absolutely. I mean, that's what we decided. If you're disabled and you cannot, you'll be provided for at some.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And at the same time people get caught in that sick role that I'm disabled, and I can't do this whole range of things, and if we can move towards them, Cale, you do a lot more work with act than I do, and this seems like a very acty thing.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Go ahead!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No! Oh, no! No! Please!

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, if I can accept that, I have this disability and then work within the framework of what I still can do. I do a lot of work with folks on like, yeah, you can't do this and this, you absolutely can't. And we need to accommodate for you. And you can do this and this, and if we can focus on what you can do, life is going to be better for you. You may still be disabled.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but life will be better for you if you focus.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, you will still be disabled. I mean, there's there's no, you know, an act. We're really not trying to change the the disability or or the problem. It really is a treatment that's provided for folks that you know we say like, that's not going to change right. But now, what are you going to do? How are you going to adapt your surroundings or the means to whatever end? But you know it's not random, it's not

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's not scattershot. It's really with this idea of being driven by sort of meaning and purpose. Why is this important to me? What are my values here? And how can I still fulfill my value? Driven behavior in a way that's adapted for the challenges I face.

Michael MacBride: And yeah, a basic thing. What? What is a act?

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Act acceptance and commitment therapy. Thank you, Michael. The non-mental health professional on the line. We should have defined that sooner. Sorry for this. It's a brand of and a way of thinking about your world that's really specific and particularly good for conditions or things that are unchangeable. You know, you really make the decision to to take control of what's in your control.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. And and for this person, you know it

Dr. Daniel Kessler: with ADHD, it's very reasonable to accommodate certain things. The person may need to be in a non-distractive environment. They may need a little extra time. They may need other placements, you know. Kids sometimes do better when they have headphones to block out sounds in schools. And and we want to accommodate, we can. And at the same time

Dr. Daniel Kessler: we need to tease out. This is the question I'm always asking parents or adults. I'm working with with ADHD, is is this a can't or a won't

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and then

Dr. Daniel Kessler: if it's a, can't we accommodate for it? If it's a won't, we need to make, we need to help the person make different choices. And in this particular case, going back to our like, our question today. This has a real feel of a won't.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Packaging is account.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes, that's well said we should go to the comments from there.

Michael MacBride: Actually, before I do that there were. There were 3 kind of side conversations. I always love like watching the comments, and how they people, you know, pick at different things, and whatever but the the 3 things that kept coming up were one. It's probably time for girlfriend to jump ship. You're in a low key, abusive relationship.

Michael MacBride: 2. His parents did him no favors by not teaching him tools and intervening sooner. And then 3. What are some tools or things that he should have in his toolbox to help with these things. And you've talked some about those. But if you could expand on that, maybe that would be an interesting point of conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Expand on the tools or the parents not doing favors, or the girlfriend in the location.

Michael MacBride: Any abusive relationship, any of those I don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: 6 h unpacking this.

Dr. Jennifer Service: You know, I think that he needs to sort of you guys are the sleep experts. But I'm always talking to my patients about. You know. What does your day look like when you get up when you go to bed? Because that needs to be pretty much set every day. And what is the structure of your day, and what does that look like? And and how are you managing that, I mean, and really sort of sit down with pen and paper, and and look at that.

Dr. Jennifer Service: and look at what you're not doing well, and and talk about how you can make changes with that.

Dr. Jennifer Service: and for my world, I mean, I prescribe medication. You know. How can we adjust things to help with that? And then, behaviorally, from you guys, you know, how do you make those behavioral changes like not gaming until one in the morning? And really, I think visually, having it written down is incredibly helpful for people to sort of realize. Because

Dr. Jennifer Service: I think you, you know, you get into these routines, and these patterns that you don't sort of realize are are really limiting you and in your ability to function.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: The thing I think I'm going to jump on a little bit is a little different. Take, which is the OP. The original poster. Here

Dr. Gayle MacBride: is a girlfriend, and she's saying, Am I the asshole? I think what she's doing is a relatively young person is trying to explore and understand her role as a significant other. She is setting boundaries and trying to figure out how to hold those and really understand what is her scope of responsibility here. So I think she's done herself a favor to, you know, kind of like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I don't know. Throw it out there to the Internet and and get a little bounce back and feedback about this. But she's got some growing work to do, too, I think, because, you know, she is being told and influenced by this guy that you know this is something you're supposed to be doing for me, and she's kind of questioning it. I think that's a that's a wise question. And now she has a harder decision, which is, what if my boyfriend doesn't make change? Am I going to be okay with staying in this? In this relationship.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. And I think that's an important question. I'm gonna jump back to what Dr. Said a minute ago. It's like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: sometimes for folks like this. When, whenever we do sleep work, we always ask for someone for a sleep diary and a good sleep diary is going to show really quickly. Dude. Of course you're not getting up in the morning

Dr. Daniel Kessler: right.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Easily.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Bed at 3 am. That is a super simple fix. So there's that piece like fixing this guy's sleep. And I totally see this girlfriend like exploring this relationship. And because it's a 1 sided thing, I'm not ready to necessarily say he's being low, key, abusive.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: However, her description does certainly describe someone who is really mistreating his partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think our discussion is really focused on the fact that this guy needs to make changes, and he has no awareness of this. And again, that insight piece one of the things that we assess forensically right insight does he have insight into? He really doesn't sound like he is, so we can give come up with sleep strategies and medicine strategies and all of these things. But the reality is, he doesn't sound like he's someone who's going to present in our offices. She is she.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I'm in distress. I really care about this guy. I really, you know, I want this to work. We're living together and like he's telling me this is my job, and I sort of think this is his job. And and what do I do? And so I would end up having a very different conversation. Or maybe not. Maybe he would say something different, because we don't have his perspective. But I kind of don't think so. I think he has been raised in this world that you know he's just used to sort of being taken care of.

Dr. Jennifer Service: I think there's a huge disparity in their level of maturity. I mean, he strikes me as somebody who's quite immature, which you know. No offense, Michael and Dan, but males tend to mature. A little later.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You're not wrong. Keep going. Please.

Dr. Jennifer Service: And and so I think that there is a significant disparity. I think it's remarkable that she is really looking into this at her age, and really not just going with it. I think a lot of people just put up with it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Until you know they're married and 7 years in, they decide that they, you know, don't want this role anymore. So you know, my hat's off to her that that she's really looking at this and he's got a lot of work to do if he is able to do it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But there's high yield and high reward if he's willing to show up and make a couple of these really seemingly small changes that will yield big results.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But as as we have, several of us have pointed out, like he's not acting as someone who is looking to make change, he's acting as someone who's looking to make other people make change on his behalf.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And he's been relatively fortunate with people who are willing to be flexible. I mean this boss keeping him on.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I can't imagine continuing to employ someone who routinely shows up an hour late to work.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Well, he's probably very likable.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Probably.

Dr. Jennifer Service: My guess is I mean, he's probably got some skills and and a personality style that's likable. And so he just needs to work on this piece of it, and you know, honestly losing his job, and perhaps his girlfriend may be what it takes for him hopefully to turn it around. I mean, that's where the hope is is that these changes and these losses will, will, you know, prompt him to make changes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What did the Internet.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Powerful teacher.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. So, Michael, what did the Internet say?

Michael MacBride: Yeah. Well, first, st she did actually offer an update, which was, she did say that he got a final final warning at his boss.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Final, Final.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know. Oh, my God!

Michael MacBride: Essentially, this can't happen again, and and she and him are continuing to work things out. So. But the the Internet

Michael MacBride: overwhelmingly was in the camp of. You're not the asshole here, you know. He's a grown ass, adult. He's had time to figure this out. He's had multiple warnings, you know, things like that. The more interesting, I think kind of conversation were in the either you're the asshole or everybody sucks here. Category. They were neck and neck.

Michael MacBride: So the you're the asshole thing really narrowly focused on. You knew this, was it? And you let him. You blew it for him like you have a response. And I agree like that felt really harsh. But that was where they came down. And then the everybody sucks here basically was like, Yeah, he's blowing it. People are enabling him, you know. You're enabling him, like you need to get out of his way and let him fail. And those were kind of the other Internet comments.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, I agree with that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Michael MacBride: And I guess the 3rd thing that was, or 4th thing were a bunch of apps that people threw out there as like, Hey, here are apps that I use for my ADHD. Here's the, you know, the screaming alarm, or the puzzle alarm, or all of these things that make it so that you just set one alarm, and you really have to work to turn it off.

Michael MacBride: Kind of thing so and.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And we certainly use a few of those. I certainly have used a few of those apps with folks who who struggle with getting out of bed. Those alarms that are super aggressive, or they have to my kid back. When he was 14, introduced me to one that you have to.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You go into the kitchen and take a picture of the stove, or something.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, that. Now cost money.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But you know what. But he was 14.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And he got himself out of bed, and he so like I I

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So if a 14 year old middle schooler can figure that out on his own, then I think that this particularly grown-ass man, even this grown-ass man with with ADHD can figure it out on his own.

Dr. Jennifer Service: So Gayla and Dan. So I from a lot of patients, I get the sense from them, or, more than that, that they think that sleep is a luxury that you know you get what you get, and oh, well, and I feel super tired. But you know what I've never really slept well, and you know, you know you just maybe get sleep. You maybe don't, and I often say to them, Well, do you feel like breathing is a luxury. And

Dr. Jennifer Service: and let's let's try to think of it the same way. But I'm wondering how you have those conversations with them, because to me it's a, you know, I'm like, you know, you really don't you feel better after you've slept, you know, 7 to 9 h. And they're like, yeah. Well, why wouldn't you want to work toward that?

Dr. Jennifer Service: So what are what are your conversations? With people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Well, there there are folks that I work with will sometimes like we'll do the sleep diary, and we'll resolve their insomnia, and they're still getting 6 HA night or 5 and a half hours a night. They're still exhausted. We look at their life, and I'll say, you know, you don't really have a sleep problem anymore.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You have a logistics problem. You have a lifestyle problem. And if you're taking care of kids and doing the all these.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Bed at 11, and you're trying to wake up at 4 30 to go to go work out. You're not giving yourself enough sleep, opportunity. We certainly do see folks who exactly that, who view sleep as a as something they can fit in when they have a chance, to which also.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Work, Gayle, you were jumping, too, and I I got it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, yeah, you know, I think it's interesting. I think we have a culture and a communication around what sleep is supposed to look like, and I think it's created some disservice here, you know, social jet lag is just accepted as normative social jet lag is this idea of especially on the weekends or days. I don't have to work. I get to stay up super super late now

Dr. Gayle MacBride: sleep in, and then, you know, I try to function. The next day when I have to go to work or school, and I have created essentially jet lag without the benefit of actually going anywhere. Really cool. So you know. I got a text the other day from from a friend, and I don't know. It was 11 o'clock, and and they had disclosed that their child had not even poked their head out of the out of the bedroom yet. And I thought.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and my kids just know we don't do social jet lag. Well, you can sleep on a little bit, but we don't do that egregious amount because it really sets your your Circadian rhythm sort of upside down. So I you know, I try to do a lot of education around that. And that's something that I think people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Come in with, and they expect to get great sleep the next day, or whatever when they've when they've whipped their circadian rhythm back and forth, you know, really hard. And and we just think it's normal. And then we think it's kind of okay. And then I get the other end of the spectrum, which is, Oh, my God! This is really awful! And I cannot do this. And like it's it's really like almost this, like desperateness. And that desperateness of chasing sleep, and so I would say, it's almost on the other end. I don't sleep.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I don't sleep well. I never have slept well, and I just have to sleep right now, and that amount of pressure, and I sometimes call it the. And for those of you on YouTube

Dr. Gayle MacBride: sleep. Damn! It, is like really overwhelming. And you don't actually get to sleep when you're feeling that anxious about sleep, and so we often are, or at least my experience is, at 2 ends of the spectrum.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah. And and you, you said this, I'll say it really, explicitly, and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Concisely wake up at the same time every day.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Wake up at the same time every day. Yeah, I know it's a weekend, and it sucks to wake up in the morning of the weekend. But if you wake up at the same time every day you're going to eliminate, we're going to eliminate a substantial number of sleep problems simply by waking up at the same time every day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Canada.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Go to bed at night.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, I mean in all people, but like it's it looks legit hard for teenagers as they're experiencing that circase.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Legit hard protein. We teenagers are a whole nother animal I like.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: That's a whole. That's another episode.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But I just like I just want to acknowledge that it's not. Yes, it's succinct, and it's short, but that's also really an under nuanced version of the recommendation, but is the best place to start.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, well, thank you all 3 for another wonderful glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums and discussions about relationships and responsibility. I remember morality is often shades of gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Shit. I forgot I was supposed to say something.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: We have a script. Gail MacBride.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I know, but I'm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Opened that script in close to a year, I think, although it's been, we've only been doing this for a year. I've not opened the script in like 6 months.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Fabulous, Michael, will you do that again? Sure.

Michael MacBride: Thanks all 3 of you for another riveting glimpse in a debate into the collective conscience of the Internet forums, relationships and sleep and ADHD and responsibility. Remember, morality is often shades of gray, not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And your mental health condition, your physical disability, whatever it is, we're not your fault, but it's gonna be your responsibility to take care of. So accountability.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah, where possible.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you so much, Michael. Thank you. Dr. Service for joining us today. I really appreciate this. I really appreciate you joining us, and and please, Jen, stick around because I think the bonus conversation is going to involve you.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Oh, okay, I will definitely stick around. Thanks. This was a lot of fun. I appreciate you inviting me.

Michael MacBride: Yeah, well, everyone out there please follow and share of our test views. Any of the podcast. Platforms with your neighbors and friends, and as always, stick around through that bonus through the credits for the bonus conversation about I don't know whatever they're going to throw Jen's way.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Jen, we started season one, and we routinely had discussions about a favorite item. Or excuse me an item in each other's office. Let me ask a question and tell the story, and it was kind of interesting. And so I'm not sure if I see your office behind you here on the video screen. But I was going to ask you what is a favorite item that

Dr. Gayle MacBride: you have in your office that maybe tells a story a little bit about you or your practice.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah, so I am. I have 2 desks. I'm looking out windows, and then I've got a desk behind me. But right in the middle of 2 of my screens, which you can't see is my saddle.

Dr. Jennifer Service: and I used. I used to be an equestrian and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is that like the pop, the the punk band thing that, like Tuesday.

Dr. Jennifer Service: It's all wrapped together. Yes, I rode horses, and I was in a punk band at the same time.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yes, my! From when I was a kid. My saddle is is right here, and it's and I often think about

Dr. Jennifer Service: getting back literally on the horse. But then, now that I am nearly your age, Dan. I

Dr. Jennifer Service: I'm too afraid to fall so so it's it's a reminder of of early years.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That's really cool. That's something I did not know about you. We I like, I said earlier. I've known you for 20 years, and I didn't.

Dr. Jennifer Service: Yeah, it's probably been that long since I've written. Yeah, cool. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Michael MacBride: Thanks for tuning in everyone. Tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

In this episode, we also reference Season 1, Episode 36, in which we cover gift-giving as well. In that episode, the question is posted by the gift-receiver. In this one, the poster is the gift-giver. Enjoy them both and see which side you come down on.

Also, Dr. Gayle MacBride mentions Brene Brown’s book Rising Strong (2015), in which she talks about “stealth expectations.”

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick: Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay.

Host: Michael: thanks for joining us. I'm your host, Michael MacBride. I'm joined by our dynamic duo of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Hi! I'm Dr. Gayle MacBride, and this Sunday, as many Sundays I am joined by my business partner and my friend, and all around wonderful colleague, Dr. Daniel Kessler. Welcome.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Thanks so much, Gayle, for that really kind introduction, as we talked about often

Dr. Daniel Kessler: what a great opportunity this is to poke through psychology and deal with these these somewhat.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: sometimes really unusual conundrums and conundra conundrums. Michael, you got something for us.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well before he does. I want to just say, you know, you know you're in the right profession when you want to spend your time on the weekend

Dr. Gayle MacBride: talking about things that relate to your job, and that this is a highlight for us, so we must be doing doing the job. We were meant to do. Because, boy, we spent a lot of time in our free time thinking about this

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Michael.

Host: Michael: As Dan said, do you have a scenario for us?

Host: Michael: Yeah, I do as always. Thanks for joining me. It's always it's always fun to do this with you guys on Sunday. So welcome

Host: Michael: Well for any of the Newbies out there, and if you don't know what Amma the asshole is, in short, someone's posted a scenario online, given all the facts as they see it, and then asked, Who's the asshole here? And that's what Gayle and Dan are going to weigh in on. So.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I love that caveat. The facts is, they see it as they see them right.

Host: Michael: It is. It is a very biased take on it. I don't think it can help me, but so what if there have been any.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Interesting if people co-wrote this meaning.

Host: Michael: Oh!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Here is our shared memory are shared

Dr. Gayle MacBride: reconstruction of what happened. Who's the asshole?

Host: Michael: I'm imagining a scenario where somebody has written it. And then there's like comments off to the side. She says this, but really this is my perspective. And then, oh, he said that! But here's what I thought, and then you could literally get both versions. Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You wouldn't be able to write just one version, because that's not how these ever go down. It's just in one way. The truth is sort of subjective as we experience it.

Host: Michael: Yeah.

Host: Michael: And if you're new, and you like this, stick around through the end because we always have even more.

Host: Michael: or a bonus or conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Bonus-er.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: That'll work.

Host: Michael: But in truth, Gayle or Dan really don't know what I'm going to throw at them. Which is the way I like it. And

Host: Michael: so let's go. Today's prompt is kind of a weird one.

Host: Michael: and I left the prompt as is because I don't know, anyway. But the post is, am I an asshole because my girlfriend doesn't like my knitting.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Okay, we need more.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, and if, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Continue.

Host: Michael: Okay, so we have a same-sex relationship here. And the poster says.

Host: Michael: I've recently developed a strong passion for knitting, and I'm excited to share this with people I care about. Naturally, I thought about making something for my girlfriend. She's always been very clear that she doesn't like receiving gifts. She says it makes her feel weird, but I figured a handmade item would be different. I've seen how much joy other knitters experience when they make gifts for their loved ones, and I wanted to feel that, too.

Host: Michael: I asked her multiple times if I could make her something, but she kept saying, No, last night I brought it up again, and when she refused I tried to explain how much it hurt my feelings through tears. I told her how much it would mean to me, but even after saying she'd think about it, she later told me no. Again I didn't push further, but I woke up feeling crushed and wondering if I was overreacting

Host: Michael: for context, and that she adds this little piece here we're both in college. She lives on campus, and I currently live at home and commute. And this is an online relationship. I understand that she doesn't like gifts and that she needed. She needs to provide measurements and an address for me to send something to her which might make her feel uncomfortable.

Host: Michael: But I wanted to make her something she'd actually use and appreciate. And it's not about the effort or money for me. I feel like her refusing. My gift is a rejection of me, and I'm struggling to understand why she doesn't want something handmade that comes from my heart. Am I overreacting? Am I the asshole here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, wow! So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Oh, nice!

Dr. Gayle MacBride: See 2 big things here.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: some unrealistic expectations, and an internalization of a No as opposed to a no to an offer. So those those are the 2 immediate things. I think we need to unpack them. What what have I missed.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I don't think you're missing anything. I think I think that I think so often

Dr. Daniel Kessler: the OP. Of the week original poster has asked the wrong question.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And and this is that this is that situation?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Because really the question is, is it reasonable

Dr. Daniel Kessler: for me to be deeply and powerfully hurt by my girlfriend's declining of my gift

Dr. Daniel Kessler: is is probably the better question. Or am I overreacting to my girlfriend's declining of the gift? Because really, that's the question here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I like the way you put it. This is this is about

Dr. Daniel Kessler: internalizing personalizing. Is that what you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You've got it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: This this rejection as being about me instead of about

Dr. Daniel Kessler: oh, God! So like there's that there's that classic. It's not you. It's me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And in this case it it's not.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's not. It's not the OP. It's the gift.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: but OP. Is taking it as a rejection of her, as opposed to a rejection of the gift, the object.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think that's really important when we get a No is to be really thoughtful about what's being rejected, because so often we conflate the 2, and in the mind of the person receiving the offer, they're just declining the offer. Can I make you a gift? Can I give you a gift? No.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, I'd rather you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You don't like me. It's that you don't want my. The item that I'm offering.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think I think she and I can't call her an asshole for this, but it is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: The girlfriend, or the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Either one, either one. But talk about OP in this case. Because, you know, I think she's she's making that, as you said, that sort of classic error of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like conflating the gift that I want to get with with something personal about me.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Her girlfriend, for whatever reason, doesn't like receiving gifts.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Now we can decide whether or not that's healthy or not healthy, or we don't know what underlies that we.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, no. So beyond the scope.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's really beyond the scope of our discussion. But

Dr. Daniel Kessler: but regardless, you know what she said is like she doesn't like getting gifts. She didn't say she doesn't want to get a gift from me, or she loves getting gifts. But when I want to give her a gift she doesn't want to. You know it's not. This is a for whatever reason she's got a thing about gift getting that she doesn't want to get.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Kind of an issue of consent in some ways.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I think it's very much an issue of consent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: So

Dr. Gayle MacBride: yeah, I mean, I don't. That's maybe not a very deep and hard part of the conversation, which is, you know, if someone tells you no, they just get to say no, and they don't need a really good reason for it. They just need to say no, and while it may hurt our feelings and we're allowed to have hurt feelings about it, the No is a no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I would. I would hope that that the girlfriend could get to a place of. I don't want a gift, but you want to give something of yourself to me. This would make me really happy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, I would want to find out what it is like. Is there something that she needs wants, etc. Like sometimes the best gifts aren't really gifts. They're they're gifts of our time or gifts of our energy or

Dr. Daniel Kessler: you know the opportunity to be together or not be, or whatever. You know that sometimes those are. Those are more potent and powerful gifts than a thing that we buy, or even a thing that we make, and for whatever reason, this isn't a gift. That's where she doesn't want. She doesn't, doesn't want the gift, and I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I sort of feel like this, maybe, is a newer relationship, and it has a

Dr. Gayle MacBride: an additional challenge of distance. And so, you know, we don't really know if they've spent some time really understanding each other and creating that backstory or love map, as the Gottmans would say, and understanding the origin of not feeling comfortable, receiving gifts. And again, she doesn't need to justify it. But ideally, if this relationship is going to work well, long term understanding that would go a long way to, I think, mitigating future conflict between these 2.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And if we think about this, we've talked about this idea of like disappointing our partner. You know. It may be that

Dr. Daniel Kessler: OP doesn't know why her girlfriend doesn't want to receive gifts.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I don't think she does.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And it may be that that you know, 20 years and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: a marriage and 2 kids later, between the 2 of them, she still doesn't know why

Dr. Daniel Kessler: the her her now wife, doesn't want to receive gifts and has had to just kind of go along with that and that just. And I'm sure it will be. It will be a disappointment to me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I like while I well, while Gift giving holidays, scare me as a partner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: At the same time, like like I get like many people, I get great joy out of giving a gift, and I would I wouldn't want to be deprived of that joy of giving, of giving my wife a gift at the same time. Like if if there was, if she just didn't like it, and I may not ever know why, like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Could you imagine a really great couples? Therapy session with the 2 of them exploring.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like to give and to receive gifts and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Isn't just explore, not judge it. I think that'd be really, really interesting, and maybe.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It be.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Going.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Fascinating couples visit to be able to explore from a very non-judgmental perspective. You really love giving gifts, and you're hurt by not being able to give me a gift.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You really love gifts. You really don't want to get gifts and are feeling hurt by me pushing you to accept a gift like, I love the idea of helping this couple navigate this challenge because it's going to harkening back to last week's episode, assuming we do them in order. And I, Michael, I think, doesn't really seem in order, but like the one we already recorded. Recently, we talked about this idea of, or you talked about this idea, Gayle, of developing a template.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And here this couple needs a template for resolving this thing that is not right or wrong, but is a difference.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: From people.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yes, yes, but this is what happens so often. We are. We are confronted with something about our partner that is uncomfortable to us, doesn't work for us, but isn't a right or wrong, it's a difference.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And now they need a template for navigating it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And we would, we would say that OP. Is stuck in this assumption of similarity where her girlfriend is expected to. And this is a bias that we have. We all do, and we all fall into it. So it's a pretty natural, normal bias to have. But you know that my girlfriend's like me. Why? Because I care about her deeply, and

Dr. Gayle MacBride: people like me must think like me, and that's just a fallacy, and we get stuck in that I also think it brings me to the second point.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I love the concept that Brene Brown calls stealth expectations. It's these expectations that are.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Stealth, stealth, stealth, expectation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Stealth, like, you know, like a stealth plane like you know.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: There until they bomb. Something that you've had high hopes into. Rubble, I believe, is, is the quote from her rising strong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And you don't know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: There! They're.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I love that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Not explicit. They're not expressed. Sometimes we just don't even realize we're holding that expectation

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and we get really hurt and then disappointed. And we go. Oh, shit! There was an expectation there. I had no idea until it was violated or hurt in some way, and so, you know we do. We hold this expectation that everybody loves to receive gifts, and they're going to be so impressed because it's handmade right? That's really special. And we have this reference for it, and I don't think that that assumption is wrong or that expectation is wrong. However.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So it's wrong for this couple.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: It's wrong for this couple. It's wrong for this individual right in particular. And so, being able to kind of walk back and say, wow! You know, I realized that without even knowing it, I held this as an expectation. And this is why I'm so hurt is because this scenario didn't play out the way I expected doesn't mean that it has to, but I can acknowledge my hurt, which is why she's not an asshole for feeling hurt about it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: But now her job is to realize she was holding what is now understood to be an unrealistic expectation. Not everybody wants to receive a gift.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: for whatever reason.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: and she kept hoping that her girlfriend would change her mind if she could build a good enough argument for it right? And so what we need to do is help her understand that she can own her feelings. She's allowed to be hurt by it, but

Dr. Gayle MacBride: making her expectations more explicit, will help her. Now, unfortunately, sometimes my clients hear this as lowering your expectations, which I'm not a big fan. I don't want people to lower their expectations. This is about expecting that

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I don't know. Aunt Pam shows up as Aunt Pam. Why? Because that's Aunt Pam. Why would you expect Aunt Pam to be someone different. Right? Let's check this. Let's keep it in line with the reality and the data that we have. And when the data change, we can modify.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And, you know, without without oversimplifying this, I really like talking to couples about how

Dr. Daniel Kessler: absolutely atrocious the Golden Rule is

Dr. Daniel Kessler: as as a way of navigating a romantic or love relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Sounds really terrific.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Until it happens in a couple.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And one part of the couple really loves this thing and the other one really doesn't love this thing, and then you keep doing the thing that you love, that your partner doesn't love. And we see this all the time in relationships. I want nothing more, you know, when we're in the middle when the fight is over, I want a big hug from my partner.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: When the fight is over. I want to be on my own

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and be in a different room and decompress, and then come back. And so the one who really wants a big hug gives a really big hug to the one who just wants to be left the fuck alone.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And the one who wants to be left to fuck alone walks away from the person who really wants the hug.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And both are right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But they're just so. The Golden Rule is an absolute failure in that situation. And so we end up teaching or talking to our clients about like do unto others as they want done unto them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: which is a little more complicated and a little harder to get to, but so much more important in a relationship.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: In your scenario have a big fight, and you know one person's not a hugger just needs some time to decompress. How do you navigate that. Then how do you do unto your partner the way they want it done unto them, and hold your own need for maybe some space.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think each person does what their partner would want, so the person who doesn't want the hug in that moment goes over and gives their partner a hug. It's what their partner needs. And then, after that hug is over, okay, I know you need to be left alone. So I'm going to leave you alone.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so like to acknowledge that like this is what you need. So I'm doing this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And now I'm going to do what I need.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think it's fine, like, I know that, like, you know, I need a hug. But I know you need to be left alone. So I'm going to go in the other room.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And I think that sometimes when we do it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: when we do those things for our partner, it feels less

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like. I'm doing this because I know that my partner wants a hug.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's not what I want, but I know that I'm you know. I'm leaving them alone, because I know that's what they want.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And receiver scenario, which I think is really important to be attuned as a Giver and as a receiver and how they show up.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: So so in the moment I may want to be left alone. But I know that this is what my partner needs, and I'm going to give this to them. It doesn't feel onerous then, or it shouldn't feel onerous then as opposed to like. Oh, now they're coming over and giving me a hug when I don't want to hug.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: so it's me choosing to do this.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Partner gives us what's meaningful to them.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think, also, setting aside the you're only hugging me because I told you I wanted to hug after the fight and getting that resentment.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: What a loving thing to do. Yeah, you're only doing this because you're only doing this because you know. Yes, yes, I am right, but it's what you it's what's meaningful to you. So yes, I'm doing this thing that is meaningful to you that I'm not necessarily connected with. But I know it's important to you, and I love you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I think that can be a wonderful thing. We talk about this a lot with couples that sometimes like you're, it's not giving in to care for someone in the way that they want to be cared for, even if it's not your way. And hopefully, both people are doing that. Everyone feels like they win.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, I love what you said. It's not giving in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah, it's like, yeah, this is what this is, what works for you, exactly. And if we're giving to our partner, they're likely to give back to us hopefully, if there's a good relationship, and then everyone feels like they they win.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I got left alone after I gave them the hug they need.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I got the hug I needed, and then I left them alone, because that's what they need like. I got what I ever both people get what they want in that situation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: because.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: They've given their partner what their partner wants. So they get what they want.

Host: Michael: Can I add one more wrinkle to this? Wait?

Host: Michael: No, just because the no, you don't screw it up. You handled this perfectly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yes, please Michael, give us.

Host: Michael: I love everything you're saying there. And this was just a conversation on online, that kind of expanded that was interesting. So like she mentions in there that this is an online relationship. And so a number of the Internet people ask, like, what does that mean like, have you ever met, or whatever. And so part of it was they they haven't. They haven't ever met in person. And so this

Host: Michael: the one of the questions was, maybe the gift giving thing is about not wanting to disclose an address

Host: Michael: that you know that there is that piece, because then you know where I live, and whether or not. There's trust there. And the OP. Weighed in on that going like, yeah, I feel like she doesn't trust me to give me that address. In addition to this gift thing, or maybe the gift, the comment to the gift is really disguised like she. It's not about the gift, it's about the address, and

Host: Michael: they haven't. You know, they haven't met in person. They've

Host: Michael: it sounds like it's mostly email communication and chats and discord. So voice, but not video necessarily.

Host: Michael: So I don't know if any of that changes your mind, but I wanted to make sure to point that out.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I would say. You know, as you read the scenario initially, I heard those things in my head. As you know, potential factors for me. I don't think it changes my mind, even if this is not about about how we would about our discussion. I think those are interesting additional discussion points potentially. But I do believe that the girlfriend has the right to say I don't want this gift for any reason, whether

Dr. Gayle MacBride: or no reason at all, whether she doesn't want gifts, whether she doesn't want to disclose her address, whatever that is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: she's allowed to say no, and the OP. Is allowed to be hurt by that. Now, it does suggest that there are some ongoing issues with this relationship around, maybe fully feeling trusted or trustworthy, or whatever. That is because there are some doubts about why this, you know, this person might not want to give away their address, or maybe some even some additional hurt feelings about not having the opportunity to see one another in video.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: You know there are concerns here, but it doesn't change my discussion. I don't think of

Dr. Gayle MacBride: this particular issue as defined.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I agree with you. It doesn't change my perspective. It does raise a lot of questions around, what is this relationship? Do they see the relationship in the same way as one of them more connected or invested in the other is it is.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Is there? Is there something going on here that, like someone's not being honest about or like, there's a whole lot of. And I want to table. I would want to set all that aside because it's pure speculation on our parts, right? And I think but I think our our assessment of it. I'm I'm I'm happy to stick with our assessment. Yeah. And I think that in in the end, like

Dr. Daniel Kessler: no one's an asshole here.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and at the same time OP. This is my opinion, but you may have it at the same time. OP is is personalizing something that really isn't about her. It sounds that, at least in our understanding of the situation. This is about the girlfriend's feelings about something and

Dr. Daniel Kessler: being hurt by it like something to work on. Yeah, I'm not going to call you an asshole for being hurt by it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, as the post stands as the with the data that we have, I would say, no assholes here. Yeah. Think the OP. It would be wise to understand that no sometimes is a rejection of the offer, and not of the individual. That sounds like a good kind of maybe coping mantra to insert in their toolbox.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I think the Internet potentially can get into some dangerous waters trying to bring in some additional information that may or may not exist about this relationship, because that's the kind of sexy hot topic of of all of this. But it's but it's outside the scope of the question.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And we do know that some Internet relationships are fraught with problems. And were those to come to light, perhaps my, my decision or ruling would be different, based on that information. But we don't have that information. And while very tempting and scintillating to maybe go down that road, we're not unless the.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Now.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Ulster has amended the comments like, I don't. I don't have that, and shouldn't be a part of this conversation.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Now, if OP gets super pushy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Like. No, you have to give me your address. You have to tell me where you have to send me your information like I'm giving you a gift, no matter what then then we can. She has the opportunity to become an asshole.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But, as stated here, she needs to work on the feelings of hurt and rejection, and.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: No one's in high school.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Michael, what'd the Internet say?

Host: Michael: Yeah, so it kind of, I mean, there are 4 basic kinds of comments that were made one, I mean the predominant one was, you need to respect boundaries that no is no

Host: Michael: stop pushing

Host: Michael: in, disregarding her boundaries and autonomy like, just yeah, people have the right to say no. Another one came up about relationship red flags. You know that maybe that reluctance is based in something else.

Host: Michael: you know. Be be careful of

Host: Michael: catfishing, and that kind of thing. Maybe, although I'm okay with that really.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I wouldn't necessarily call it a red flag, but I would. It's certainly something I would

Dr. Daniel Kessler: maybe a yellow flag to pay attention to. Yeah.

Host: Michael: My my favorite one, were people that were saying like,

Host: Michael: focus on healthy outlets for your knitting, you know. Give them the family, or friends or charities. There are lots of charities that would benefit from, you know, warm things that you could knit, and that would perhaps give you that kind of boost from, you know, giving something that you made to somebody who would benefit from it.

Host: Michael: And then, lastly, they also kind of said, like, you probably need to seek some therapy to kind of talk about your emotions and self-esteem, and you know, making sure that your self-esteem isn't entirely wrapped up in gift, giving so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And I love an opportunity

Dr. Gayle MacBride: for the girlfriend to say to OP,

Dr. Gayle MacBride: I really appreciate the thoughtfulness, and that thoughtfulness is a wonderful gift, and I choose to receive that as as the gift, and not whatever it is that you need to knit. But I love that you thought of me for that. Thank you.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: And that would be, you know. I think, a nice response.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Yeah.

Host: Michael: In terms of the Internet's actual ruling, like those were.

Host: Michael: High, level thoughts that kind of floated around the comments that I enjoyed. The actual ruling was pretty unanimously. You're the asshole. Stop pushing, stop trying to get them to accept something that they want. No means. No, so on a few people said, everybody sucks here. You know your girlfriend's reaction is is harsh, and you know you just pushing makes it worth worse. You both need to kind of soften your approach and stop that

Host: Michael: and then, 4. People

Host: Michael: said that you're not the asshole I crochet, and 100% understand? Wanting to make something for someone you love. It's a form of appreciation. She needs to accept that which I'm like. I don't think.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Sell.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No, now.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: No. And but I also disagree that she's an asshole I think I think she could get. We could talk to. She wander into that territory. But, as stated, she's really talking about hurt feelings, not forcing something so.

Host: Michael: Well, thanks you. Thank you both for a whole other. Wonderful conversation! I always. I always love chatting these through and hearing what you come up with, and, you know, push, measuring you up against the Internet and see. See? You know what what we.

Host: Michael: what people different people pick up on, I guess so. I mean, remember everyone. Morality is often shades of gray, and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Oh, and to my knitters and crocheters out there find great outlets for your handiwork. It will be deeply appreciated by somebody, but not everybody.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But not everybody. Right.

Host: Michael: Yeah, please follow and share for our test views any of the podcast platforms with your neighbors and friends. And I suppose also online relationships, and, as always, stick around to the credits for whatever the bonus conversation is going to be about.

Kelley Buttrick: You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael: Thanks for listening as promised. Here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Wow, Dan, okay. So I was curious. If you could tell us a little bit about a topic that has kind of piqued your interest lately. You know, we do trainings, and we try to stay, you know, current to literature. And sometimes we're introduced to an entirely new idea, and I was wondering what's got you really excited clinically these days.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: There was a recent training I went to, and the concept

Dr. Daniel Kessler: isn't necessarily new, but the labeling of it is, and really caused me to dive deep into it, and the concept is one of moral injury.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and a moral injury is defined as when we have done something

Dr. Daniel Kessler: that is inconsistent with our moral ethical beliefs.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and we're deeply troubled by it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And you know I

Dr. Daniel Kessler: I work a lot with folks who have, you know, are their their post affair or their or they have, you know, engaged in behaviors that they look back on. They're like I was out of line

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like this is not who I think of myself as.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And we don't talk a lot about this idea of moral injury, and how painful it is like. It's painful to have something

Dr. Daniel Kessler: like when a partner is out of line, and you know they betray you in some way. That's really painful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Into more.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Also often painful for the partner who has done something that is just so inconsistent with their belief system like, how did I do this thing like this is not who I think of myself as, and you don't get to like, point a finger and blame, and, like you, you know, you have to sit with that pain and discomfort.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And that that I, putting a name on this thing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: is super interesting to me, because so many people struggle with this idea of I can't believe that I allowed this to happen, that I caused this to happen, that I did this thing, and like. Now I have to figure out how to experience that pain

Dr. Daniel Kessler: and not run away from it, and not blame it on anyone else, but also not let it overwhelm me and take over my life.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: It's fascinating work, and I've been. I've been doing it for a while without a label.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Interesting. And I really like the label.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Does this include having done something, maybe earlier in your life that now maybe the adult version of you has realized, oh, wait! That's not okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: For sure, for sure.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: You know, we look back on stuff and like Oh, I did this in a teenager, or you know, a parent's often like. I can't believe I acted this way towards my kid like I can't believe I screamed at them over this thing like what a like like. And you see, and we see parents who come in and just feel absolutely terrible about

Dr. Daniel Kessler: having

Dr. Daniel Kessler: yell with the kid too much or or and like. And then and the temptation is to be like, Yeah, yeah, it's fine. It's not. But sometimes they people just do need to sit with that pain.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Experience it and not pile on it. Not but at the same time not just like, Oh, it's okay.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: But to really like experience, that that discomfort.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Well, and you and I talk about emotions having sort of a biological origin, and so perhaps that opportunity that we afford our clients to sit with difficulty or difficult emotions allows them to internalize that a bit more, and maybe make different choices in the future. Do you think.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Right? Yeah, we we don't want to. I mean, we don't want to just sweep it up. We don't want to like, say, Oh, it's okay. But we also don't want to say, let's let's let's wallow in it like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Right, no.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Sitting with. It isn't the same thing as like diving into it, wallowing, and experiences sort of intense, ongoing pain. There's this place of like recognizing, acknowledging.

Dr. Daniel Kessler: Explaining, understanding, and coming to a place of of

Dr. Daniel Kessler: relative peace about this, while also using it as How do I never do this again, how do I avoid doing this kind of harm in the future without without excusing it or or

Dr. Daniel Kessler: getting stuck?

Dr. Daniel Kessler: And we've we've seen people who ex get stuck.

Dr. Gayle MacBride: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely for lots of different reasons. And so I like having the name to it. This is really cool. I look forward to talking with you more about moral injury and its impacts on our clients.

Host: Michael: Yeah, thank you both very much, and thanks everyone for tuning in tune in again next week for a whole other. Am I the asshole debate.

Kelley Buttrick: We love hearing from you, so please review us on Apple, Spotify or well, wherever you're listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please review, like, and follow. Also give it a share. That helps us reach more listeners.

Today, Dr. Daniel Kessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride are joined by Dr. Bill Hoekstra. Dr. Hoekstra is a board-certified psychologist and licensed clinician in the state of Minnesota, with over 24 years of experience in clinical psychology. He is PSYPACT authorized to provide psychological care to patients in 42 states,  offering virtual visits for a variety of mental health services. Dr. Hoekstra holds a Diplomate in Behavioral Sleep Medicine (DBSM) and has specialized training in diagnosing and treating sleep disorders such as insomnia, circadian rhythm issues, and shift work-related sleep challenges. His expertise extends to trauma psychology, forensic psychological assessment, and evidence-based therapies including Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART). Throughout his career, he has worked in diverse settings, including community mental health clinics, outpatient facilities, and county courts, delivering patient-centered care. Dr. Hoekstra’s practice philosophy emphasizes creating a safe, non-judgmental environment to foster personal growth and help patients achieve their mental health goals. You can find him on his webpage, https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/, and on Instagram @themoodandsleepclinic 

On this episode, the participants mentioned:

• David Burns “cost/benefit analysis”, which can be found here: https://feelinggood.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/4feae-blame-cba-completed-version.pdf

• Or, in his book: Feeling Good: Overcome Depression and Anxiety with Proven Techniques, https://amzn.to/4fln1Hh

• Dr. William Hoekstra can be found at his private practice, the Mood and Sleep Clinic: https://www.themoodandsleepclinic.com/drhoekstra

Transcript

Kelley Buttrick:

Well, hey there, you've stumbled upon the intersection of Internet quandaries and psychological insight. Welcome to Veritas Views on AITA, where the quirks of the Internet meet the expertise of Veritas Psychology Partners.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for joining. I'm your host, Michael. I'm joined by our dynamic trio of psychologists.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Hi, I'm Doctor Gayle MacBride, and of course I'm here with Doctor Daniel Kessler. But we have brought Doctor Bill Hoekstra back. Is. Trained in sleep work as well as trauma, and who knew? He also has a forensic background. You can find him at the Mood and sleep Clinic in his private practice among some of his other interesting pursuits. Welcome, Bill.

Host: Michael:

Thank you.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And again, I’m Dan Kessler. Gayle and I run a Veritas Psychology Partners together. We're really happy that Bill is willing to come back for a second episode, an encore episode, or after our first one. And as I mentioned, near the end of the first one I was like, I was like what?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You didn't go run screaming. He didn't go run screaming.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No, he didn't, he. I thought, gosh, I go see this guy for therapy. Like this is good. I'm. I'm glad you were willing to come back and endure another episode with us. So thanks so much. Michael, you brought us a problem to resolve.

Host: Michael:

I. Yes, I'm full of problems apparently. Welcome all three of you for any of the newbies out there. First, if you don't know what we're talking about, essentially what I've done is I've gone on the Internet and I found somebody who posted a scenario asking who's the asshole here, and generally the readers help answer those questions. In this case, we have 3 psychologists that are going to weigh in. It's not a professional opinion, it's just kind of like talking through some thoughts and ideas and that kind of thing and. Where the post is specific, I've tried to make a little more discreet. And if you're new, stick around through the end. Always have some kind of bonus conversation. Not sure it'll be this. OK. So the headline this time is, am I the asshole for refusing to give up my dog? For my fiance's allergic daughter.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Wow, you've stunned 3 psychologists into silence. That is well chosen conundrum. Thank you, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, these are tough, tough, tough. When there's a, you know without, without hearing anymore, I'm going to go ahead and, you know, jump in because I like to do that. There's so many problems where there isn't necessarily a clear like most of our couple, many of our couples. So those exact conflicts that don't have a absolute right or absolute wrong, although perhaps we're going to hear something that's going to tell us is an absolute right or wrong. Maybe I should like, let's do let's do the problem. Michael, before we, before we render anything further.

Host: Michael:

For sure. Well, here are the details we got. The poster is 34 female and she has a golden retriever. The dog has been with her for seven years and according to her, he's more than a pet. He's family. Her fiance is 37 year old male. Recently moved in with his nine year old daughter Emil, the daughter is severely allergic to dogs, not the take Benadryl kind of your find. Kind of allergy. She actually breaks out in hives and has serious breathing issues. Issues the fiance knew about Max from the beginning and when they were dating, he swore the dog wouldn't be a problem because they didn't live with her at the time. But now that they've moved in, it's a constant issue. The daughter’s allergies flare up. She's here and now the fiance is demanding that she re homes her dog. For the daughters safety, the poster has mentioned a number of different compromises. Keeping the dog out of the stepdaughter's. Constant deep cleaning investing in air purifiers, even boarding the dog part time when the daughter is over. But none is good enough for the fiance he. She needs to put the daughter 1st and get rid of the dog entirely. He also made it clear that if we don't, we might need to rethink the wedding. Told them flat out I'm not re homing the dog. I love all of them, but the dog is family and has been with her long. I'm not dumping them like an old piece of.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Host: Michael:

The fiance thinks she's being selfish and that she's not ready to be a step mom. His family keeps piling on, saying that she's prioritizing a dog over a child, and now she's the villain. Her phones are split, and so she's coming out saying, is she the asshole here for choosing the dog over the daughter?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So are we. First, are we human? First select the human beings. Don't walk.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Man.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. That smacks of so much control and manipulation to me on behalf of the.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, I mean.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Man moving in, who knew she had the dog for so long and knew he had a daughter who was allergic. Unless we're finding out that there's like, a surprise allergy. I don't think that's the case.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think what seems like the surprise in defense of the dad here is that the degree of the daughters allergic reaction like I think this is one of those situations where you don't know how difficult this is until you move in and you go, oh shit, this is. A problem?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But I don't think it's the problem of the OPiate home. It was. They clearly they want to move forward with their relationship because they have a wedding day. But this moving in prior to the wedding and then discovering the dog of the problem is not really a problem of. It's a problem of this dad and I presume the dog is only there part time because she's got a biological mother somewhere else or another parent who's taken care of her. Other portion of the time. And I think it's for her biological parents to decide. What is the best option. I mean, what option could be that she only visits during the day or she does spend less time at that house and then I know it's kind of sucking in the dead doesn't give that option. Yeah, there's just a lot of options in demand that someone get rid of a pet seems.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm not comfortable with that, especially because he's the one moving in. I feel like it would be different if we massaged these facts and flipped it around and she and the dog moved into the daddy's house.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I feel like that might be. Hey I need you to, you know, to rehome the dog or or move back out but.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What's the?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

This setup is really problematic, Michael.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Again, what's the level of the allergy as far as like is this life? Is it just like like a like she gets a little sneezy? Like, what's the what's the?

Host: Michael:

Breathing issues with relationship to it doesn't say life threatening, but it's not something Benadryl is happening.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sometimes relationships don't work out for no fault of our own, but because there is. That makes the. Create a basic incompatibility and I'm not sure if the dog is that basic in fits that category or. We certainly see that category in like one person desperately wants to have children and can't imagine life without children and the other person. Would absolutely never want to have. There's not necessarily a compromise. You can't necessarily have kids part time and this is one of those ones where both people are saying this is not a compromise I can. Now the question is like so the Internet started saying and we're kind of saying, well, maybe one of them should.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I don't think one of them necessarily. Should make a compromise on this. I mean you like coming to your point. Maybe this isn't the right relationship for you, because. There are differences. This isn't a right or wrong. I think we're really feeling stumped because I mean, as a person I would really struggle to rehome the dog and the amount of stress that it would cause on this dog in sort of the middle of its life. Suppose it's got, you know, probably another half of its life to go, which is a long time to put. Relationship on hold. So we have some apps absolute non negotiables on the table for. And so to your point, Daniel. The right couple to kind of proceed forward through kind of no fault of their own. What I do think is happening here, that's a little bit problematic and unfortunately it's one of those things that we pick up on a lot of times is this ROM com phenomenon, right. We're not having peaceful, thorough conversations. Kind of slinging out Sol. Batting them away and going fine, you know, and kind of it feels like it's got a bigger sort of drama feel that's going to feel that ROM com as opposed to having a really good, thoughtful conversation about these differences. I suspect that the emotions are high because. Because these two people probably do really love each other and in another world with other circumstances, maybe they'd make a really great couple going forward and they're really stuck on gosh, this feels really big and we don't know how to do this even though we have really. And positive feelings otherwise.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I think part of the piece I was responding to initially was this weight that he was putting on the OP for bearing the burden of the problem. And so rather than looking at it dynamically, it was maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother, maybe blah blah blah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Mm.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

So like for me? Like those are really powerful black and white accusations to throw around so and again what we don't know is what is the development of? It would be hard for me to imagine that he didn't know that there was an allergy on board prior to them deciding to kind of cohabitate, and so Imagine the daughter's been to the house. Before. I just for me that felt really, I don't want to use gaslighting because that's that's a be a little overuse term, but it it felt really unfair that all of them gifted so abruptly. OK.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Bill, I'm going to. I'm going to. Sorry, Gayle, I.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

But no, I was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Said Gayle.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

To say that that's not what I was saying. Were those high emotions like I think we're?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Things.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Like I think you're not fit to be a stepmom because that was, you know, that that lacks that depth of conversation. I like the way you put it, that bearing an an equal amount of weight.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I. I want to rescind what I previously said. Then Bill 'cause, you've convinced me here, 'cause. My first thought is he's not being manipulative. Learned something new. And now he's setting a. But as you remind me of that comment, like maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother yet. Like like and now one of these we don't find out it when people write these. The unfortunate things we don't find out what she said before he said that like, did he say like did did he did? Did she say to him like if you really loved?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

You would you would accept my dog. And he said, well, maybe, you know, maybe you're not really, you know, like, was this in the midst of argument? How did it come out? But as an isolated comment, that comment really feels manipulative. You're absolutely right. It feels like. Like if you maybe you're not ready to be a stepmother. And I do want to be the fly on the wall that hears what? What preceded that comment because it might have been equally awful. But that's a pretty awful comment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I also wonder what level of influence the biological mother's having from the sidelines. You know, sometimes you talk about minor characters.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So is she really upset about the exposure here and in service of trying to maintain a long term relationship with someone with whom you are no longer romantically? Attached to right, you know this parenting and they've got a. They've got what, another nine years of having to figure out this. Sometimes a biological parent may take half, feel like they have to take a stand because they're between two people. And it's not just the daughter, but it might be the biological mom. Saying, hey, if you don't da da da da da and she may be pulling some strings on the other side and we just don't know. Right. We just don't know.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Right.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Can. I'm not saying it does, but you know, if we massage facts, I can see that fitting in.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh. And we and we do love to massage hacks in these situations because we we don't always have them. I could totally see that. You're bringing our daughter over. Where like our daughter is coming. Our like you're around like.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Your office, right? That. Gosh, my my former partner is saying these things to me, demanding. That and you know, we even write some of this stuff into divorce decrees.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. So if I shift gears like that was my human. And so like if I shifted to the clinician, so I'll just quickly put on like a professionalism thing like for me, I would be really interested kind of like to your point both of you like, so if we had a stenographer like let's read back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Oh.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

The language all the way leading up to this moment. I would be really interested in hearing how have other problems been solved by this. Covering kind of get thrown at each other, like what does that history look like?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There there therapy.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Is this a once in a lifetime kind of moment for them, or is this a regular kind of event and to me, just from a communications viewpoint that would make? Really interesting to see how these things flesh out. Sure this. This can't be the first rodeo for both of them to be in a. Like this?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

What a wonderful question. A wonderful.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I’m mad.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

How do you resolve?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I asked that and I didn't think about it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. How how what is your result? What is your template for resolving the really tough questions. Do you? How do you as a couple navigate those those challenges when you have them in the past and they go unworked on? They get like what that is. That's why I didn't think. That damn that is.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

As a guest to make it.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

That is why that is probably why.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Three hits.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Three headed monster. Now, I don't know.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

What kind?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Of therapy. So. I mean, this one's a tough one to render a verdict. Because there are so many deep emotions, it's quite possible that everyone here is being to some degree reasonable and maybe said some things they shouldn't have said. And this is a really tough problem to work out because you can't both have a dog and not have a dog, and you can't have a dog and not have a dog at the same time. You know, there may have been some really horrible things said on on multiple fronts here that exacerbated this. Some of the solutions that I think OP mentioned just you know, only have the daughter over or some of the like only have the daughter of a partner.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Cleaning and keep cleaning.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, only having the daughter of during the day. Like as a parent.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Those are really big concessions, honestly.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, I can't see myself being like, oh, yeah, I just have my have my kid over for a few hours during the day and not like that wouldn't. That wouldn't go with me as a parent.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And rehoming the dog is not an absolute unreasonable. It's just that the OP doesn't want to do it. You know, I certainly have seen situations where people say, OK, I can no longer have this dog in my home. And so my father was gracious enough to take the animal so I can still visit. I still have. Rights as a word of the dog. But you know OP doesn't want to give up that that dog to 10 year. Anyone which then we have to discuss back.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Certainly we've all.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

The dollar. I mean, they're almost the same age.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fair. Yeah, it'd be interesting to hear what the relationship between the dog and the daughter is. Just because a child is allergic doesn't mean they don't want to love them and hug them and have them forever. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah. And certainly we've all worked with people who are grieving the loss of a PAT and we hear this comment.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I wonder how his daughters know about this.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Heard this comment many times, like not. But they don't have the pet more than their parents. I'm not saying that, but people sometimes say this is harder for me than when I lost a human loved one.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That's right.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Like like, no, I wouldn't. I certainly wouldn't have chose that, you know, but but but like, like when my parent died, they weren't in my life day in and day out. And they'd been very ill for awhile when but this. But the dog is there every single day.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thinking wrongly in the same way the dog was.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

This is like emotionally harder. I've heard people say this is emotionally harder for me. Then then it was when I lost this other loved one. Who's a. So I think it's really, really I wouldn't want to underestimate the power of of a pet that a person is very close to and it's, you know, help them through really tough times. So I've been a constant companion. This one's tough.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Are we ready to render some verdict or is the verdict there is no verdict?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I just want to say really quickly like so, just as therapists like all three of us know how easy it is to have a problem like this come across. Plate and then we have a. What kind of moment where we?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Look.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

How dare he say that? And so I just so value like both of your opinions kind of just walking back and doing the hard job of seeing the other perspective and just making sure we don't have that initial human response.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Right.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Get rid of that guy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Well, yeah. I mean, you know definitely don't want that in your clinical office, but I you know I and my training and Dan and I've talked about this is it's OK to be a human in therapist's office, like in a human response wouldn't be like you. Take tell the guy to take a hike, but I certainly would be a human.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And go, Oh my gosh. Like, wow, that really.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I you know, I'm. I'm sorry that this has become an issue for you and you know, happy to work on this. But I think my initial surprise and maybe a little bit aghast might come through.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Without telling her what to do for sure. So.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

The level of complexity here is one that I you know I'm I am holding open the possibility that OP is a total asshole and has handled this really badly. I'm holding open the possibility that OP is just has handled this incredibly well. And is doing it perfectly and vice versa like. I don't feel like I can say one way or the other on this one.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So not enough information for.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't feel for me. There's not enough information because because we we just don't know all the conversation that led up to certainly we I can say definitively that that, that, that the this couple is not necessarily working great together on this problem and at least one of. Has said some pretty awful things to the other. I don't know both of them. Not so. There's a problem here, but that problem looks like it sounds like it's a relationship issue, not that someone's an asshole. Although it is quite possible that one of them is and that we just don't have enough information here. Other thoughts?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I think the probability of someone sucking here is not 0.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

That is true. There's room for growth, right?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah, that's. That's where my verdict is, yeah.

Host: Michael:

In fact, I would say interestingly, I mean there were different people on the Internet, said various things. But the general consensus was in fact, everybody sucks here. So the Internet was very happy to point a finger at everybody except for the dog and the stepdaughter. They were very clear to those two are out. But this comment basically is kind of the gist of what everybody on the Internet was saying, which is what the shit did you guys think was going to happen?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Hmm.

Host: Michael:

You plan out anything at all. Would. Date, let alone get engaged to, let alone let a man move into your. House with a daughter who's severely allergic to your furry family member. Why would he date and get engaged to a woman with a dog while his child is severely allergic? The two of you discuss this how? Why did you just move forward with having that important conversation? All these compromises you mentioned are naive at best. Perhaps delusional. Girl can cannot be around the dog. Period. Are too mutually exclus. Of things same for him thinking that you can. Give up the. Delusional. Pick the dog and learn to think better about who you date and get engaged to. What the shit? shit sake.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I'm going to render that commenter just. Come on. It's OK that you didn't.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Now the thing I agree with is that in these situations, typically you're having a number of overnights, and before you move in, you're very often in this alignment of spending a lot of time at the house that you're moving into. And one would think that the daughter would. And we would have seen this. But I'm not at that level of that, that summer or poster. Think that poster might be overstepping. Just a little.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I'll agree with the whole point of the naivety of didn't you talk about these things already? You know that part resonates with me like communication. So fundamental.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Is the other thing that I think about is that sometimes the reality of a thing is so different than the fantasy of the thing. And we, we we like don't know how it's going to be until we're actually. And I and when you add in the early phases of a relationship and the new relationship energy that can cloud our judgement. I can totally see this couple thinking. Work that. We'll work that out like like, like it'll be fine. Love each. It's really terrific in this early phase of relationship. Human beings don't think clearly.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I see that.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I can do.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Money, faith. Children like you know things, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yes.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

See and I think that where these folks may have made the mistake is before the relationship started. For Dad to have in mind, like I can't date someone who has a dog because that would harm like that. That like because he didn't.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

They didn't know the level of the allergy until she's. For a prolonged period of time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

OK. So I'll give him that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

According to the post.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

All right, so now we know for future relationships for him that he should just rule out anyone who you know and I think. And I don't think that's unreasonable to say. You know, I'm like, I just can't date someone who lives with a dog because my kids have.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Great. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Kids allergic and. And I. Could totally see this couple finding themselves in this situation, so I'm going to disagree with the vehemence with which that. That, that, that person responded because like I totally see this happening and people just not realizing that it's that big. Deal. And you know.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I would love to see these two adults, at least one of them has been around the block and A and a well, maybe not. Take that. I'm locked up, but coming backward. Two adults here in their mid to late 30s. I hope you would have enough experience in the world to realize.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Maybe.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

We don't have to get married. We can continue in a deeply committed relationship. We can live in separate homes, which will protect the dog. We don't have to get married. Can stay. And you don't like it? You just let me take Kessler.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I like it. Now I like it.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And as you say and people. It and it works fine and then once the daughter maybe has left the home and isn't routinely living with them. Then you know, maybe they choose to get. It's not ideal, but it's a way to to move forward in a relationship and keep the relationship without, you know, telling one or the other to take a hike and honoring the daughter's allergy.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I think that there I think when people get into seeking a relationship, they're often seeking a partner to share their lives.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With in a deeper way than, no in in.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

You look like they can do that. They can. Can do continue to do sleepover. Can go to his place.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

It didn't share their lives together in a way that they are sharing their lives on on the daily together in the same home.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

There are lots of circumstances that prevent that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Sure.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

It. Or, you know, some some other factor that keeps you in separate households for a long period of time.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But for we've talked about this in previous podcasts sometimes, like we can say that's a reasonable thing. Someone might say for my relationship that's not something I'm willing to do.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm not willing to. We have a relationship. Part. I want a full time relationship or not or no and that's not an unreasonable thing to say.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

It's a personality match, but that's the thing, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Just throwing it out there as an option.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Sorry. Go ahead. We over talk to you. Sorry.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh no, that's right. Just. I agree with both of you, but like it has to be a personality match like you can't, obviously. Gayle, I don't hear you prescribing that to this couple. These are. And so like, we just wonder like there's that, that authoritative like shape up or ship out kind of thing that that we think we heard coming from one side to the other and we don't know how. That maybe, but if you know, have they worked through all of the different permutations? If they're important enough to each other, have they considered those? And I appreciate Gayle, what you're saying is, can you work through those and they may have the personalities that this is not it?

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

No, I think sometimes our job is to bring lots of different creative ideas and then evaluate them, right. And if the client says no, that's really not going to work for me or for my partner.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Fine. But at least we've we have created an opportunity to step back from the emotional, you know, shape up our ship out and think, think flexibly about this. Then why this would or wouldn't? What are the costs and the benefits of each of these potential solutions and allowing someone to come to a conclusion? Their own or in this case, hopefully together. Come to an amenable conclusion.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah. You hear the echoes of a radical acceptance in their, like, kind of accepting the problem for what it is and learning how flexible given.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. Frankly, I was in my. I was thinking of the David Burns work and the CDA stuff that cost benefit analysis.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So yeah, I think we, you know, we're influenced by a lot of therapists and creative ways to think about it. But I think that's our charge is to is to think creatively and us to accept whatever the client decides is best for them. Don't walk in their shoes. We don't live their lives. Don't. You know, we don't really get involved in that way in their relationships. They have to make those decisions for themselves. Can't see the you know an answer that might be really workable right in front of them.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

With this brought to me a little bit was my previous training many years ago as a family mediator and moving these folks in the mediation where they talk about moving people from from positions to interests that these people have a position both in a position you can't have. Dog and live with me. I have to have the dog and you have to. Have to find the solution so that that's their POS. Taken, but what's their? Well, their interests are are are living together, not harming, not not harming the daughter and not wanting to give up the dog. How do we or not wanting to take the dog out? My life. So is there a using looking at these? Is there a solution that works for not a compromise? But a solution that allows everyone to win, and if there's not, that's when they go. OK, there's not a solution, but to start from that position from to move away from this entrenched position of this has to be the way it is and move towards what can we. What solutions? We find together as a couple as we navigate this and getting back to Bill's question like how do you resolve the differe. Difficult things if they're resolvable.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I'm going to disagree. Everyone's fucked here. I don't. I. I don't think I don't think to say if the Internet says everyone sucks here. Don't agree with that, but I'm open to the possibility that that's true.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

More information.

Host: Michael:

Right, yeah. Well, can I throw in one other kind of comment so that it was a smaller contingent, but it did say not the asshole and then this poster kind of encapsulated that idea which was. I agree with. It's time to at which is the fiance's name I came out later in the post. It is time to rethink the. He's not putting his child first over your dog. He is putting his child first over you as a father. Entitled to do that. He is not entitled to do the my way or the Highway act as a partner. You're free to evaluate it. And the life you want in a marriage the other way to look at this is to remove the conflict from. Picture and look at his actions. He moved into your. Now he has unilaterally making demands. Is a red flag. Additional concerns this is. A good look for him either way. Are some other scenarios? A dad who is. So clueless, he has no idea how bad his daughter's allergies are. A dad willing to disrupt his daughter's life by moving in with someone instead of having the OP move in with him and having that new environment be a hazard to her health. And three. A partner willing to put his daughter's well-being at risk just to get his way. None of these are great. The asshole. Not you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I don't know enough to say that.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I can feel like you're there. Assumption there a little strong.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

But it's. But it's also possible. I mean, you know we we've.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Is there probabilities greater than 0?

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Yeah, yeah. Possibility is greater than 0, yeah.

Host: Michael:

Yeah, great.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Thank you. Really, this is this was. This was one that really, really brought up a lot of great conversation. Appreciate your your bringing this challenge to us.

Host: Michael:

All three of you for another riveting debate and a glimpse into the collective conscience of the Internet forums. Remember, morality is often, you know, Shades of Grey and not just black or white.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

And thank you, Bill, for reminding us that we are humans and therapists and both reactants belong in the room at times.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And we. We do certainly have those human reactions, and sometimes we govern them and sometimes we use them.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Mm.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

And so I also appreciate that.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

And thank you for having. It's just so fun to be in this room and kind of imagine myself as like you guys as my therapist and I just, I so value your opinion. Just it's it's.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Run.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Amazing to hear. Like other people's ideas bouncing off when it's, you know, you in your own all the time. It's really it's awesome to have a 300 monster, as it were, so.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Yeah. No, it's a lot of fun. And Michael was asking me a little bit about you. And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I've known Bill long time. Here's my metric. If I went to a conference, I would actively sit next to Bill. The conference. That's always true for everybody. So.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

No, Richard.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I appreciate your professionalism and your. Yeah, it's been great. Thanks.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

No.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Yeah, likewise. Definitely like.

Host: Michael:

Well, please follow and share your test views and the podcast platforms, the neighbors and friends. And as always, stick around through the credits for whatever the bonus conversation will be. On the flip side of the credits?

Kelley Buttrick:

You can follow Doctor Dan Kessler @drdankessler and Dr. Gayle MacBride @drgmacbride. Oh, and you can find them both at VeritasPP.com. Credits. Tickling the ivories, Matthew Redington. Art production and design bringing the show together with flair and finesse, Michelle Love. Recording and editing, turning chaos into something worth sharing, Michael MacBride. Intro/outro, I'm Kelley Buttrick a VO talent who just happens to be Doctor MacBride's cousin. Cats: CJ, Linus, Sadie and Griffin. Hosting by whomever lost the coin flip. Interruptions by all their children. The content of this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening to this podcast does not constitute a therapist client relationship. If you believe you may be experiencing a mental health issue, please seek the assistance of a qualified. Mental health professional if you are experiencing a mental health crisis, you can call or text 988 from anywhere in the US to be connected to crisis mental health services.

Host: Michael:

Thanks for. As promised, here's that bonus conversation.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

So for our bonus conversation, I would like to ask you some this or that questions. They're totally just kind of random things I came up with. Going to ask both Bill and Dan to weigh in. Probably alternate who goes first just. Make sure that Dan also experiences the lovely wait hot spotlight and the urgency of having to answer. All right, Bill, I'm going to go with you first. Or that ping pong or pickleball.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

Ping pong. I never played pickleball.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

I. So I don't know why. Haven't either.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Not just more active.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Pick up, then play the golf. Pickelball?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

I don't, but I played tennis before, but it just feels more. Ping pong.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Oh. Well, you should come over sometime. Play ping. I'll see you more active. Especially against our youngest son, boy, he's a boy.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

Dan mountains, or Desert Bill mountains. Why mountains guys?

Dr. William Hoekstra:

Hounds. Hounds. Oh yeah, I would say it's it's a, it's a challenge to go up. Like going up things and so it. I love deserts too, but I love the challenge of going. And then seeing.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I yeah, I've hiked in both. And it found that. The mountain hike to be. I don't know. You know what his his thing is though.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

This also.

Dr. Daniel Kessler:

I've only ever hiked in a. In a mountainous desert. So. So how about mountainous desert? I have. I have hiked in a mountainous desert before and I really. It was enjoyable, but I like the trees better. There you go.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

All right. My next one is acquired by our Intrepid podcast host. Yes, you, Michael, who asked me to propose this one and I thought it was a bit preposterous at first, but I want you to hang with me. Because this or that is, you have to choose to keep one.

Dr. William Hoekstra:

OK, well.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

The. So this or that, do you choose mosquitoes or?

Host: Michael:

Thanks.

Dr. Gayle MacBride:

For both of you. OK, I think that was Michael's the choice too, because they were more avoidable. Yeah.